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  • I'm quite curious to get an understanding of how you all would feel about the inclusion of many other foreign ships other than Japanese or German. Didn't see any posts about this and I'm curious about something else in particular but I decided to inspire conversation about it.

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    • This game features axis ships as playables. You will probably see Italian ship or two in the future.

      If you want US ships, you already have them all you want - shooting at your girls when you sortie.

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    • Simple: No/No/**** no.

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    • Rather curious, no? It gives the game a very anti-Allied feel... (I'll note that I'm the original poster, I just didn't post this when I made my account.)

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    • Just a Simple Merchant wrote:
      Rather curious, no? It gives the game a very anti-Allied feel... (I'll note that I'm the original poster, I just didn't post this when I made my account.)

      Don't get me wrong by the way, I love the game and I personally don't mind not seeing Allied ships...Abyssals considered, but I guess that opens up to what the Abyssals are and that question is for another disscussion entirely.

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    • There already is a Soviet ship in the game. Her name is Verniy.

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    • Simple: no

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    • Bloodylord wrote:
      Simple: no

      Any reason why?

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    • 76.184.12.234 wrote:
      There already is a Soviet ship in the game. Her name is Verniy.

      True on that, but she wasn't innately Soviet, as such I won't really count her but her presence was noted.

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    • " It gives the game a very anti-Allied feel... "

      IJN was quite anti-Allied...

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    • Just a Simple Merchant wrote:

      Any reason why?

      Simple. I don't want my girls to fight each other. I also don't want my girl to feel insecure when they sortie or even when they're in base. The shipgirls looses their past memories, but the memories are still there, they just can't remember exactly. Now putting Allied ships in my base, it's matter of time until they remember, it's not easy to forgive those who killed you and your comrades in the past. This applies to each and every shipgirl, no matter what side she belongs to. If they have to care too much about what if the one stand next to them shoot them like they did in the past, they'll not be able to fight Abyssal. Furthermore, they will not have happy time, and i don't like that.

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    • I just want USS Iowa pl0x

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    • Meh doesn't matter to me if allied ships are in the game. Maybe they will add them sometime in the future (whenever they run out of axis ships) but who knows. If you want allied ships that badly, I sugest playing the Chinese Android app Battleship Girl. Its like Kantai Collection with their own art (unlike the other Chinese ripoff games that take art from other games). It runs fine on the Bluestacks though I sugest if you are going to play that game, create a Chinese email account to register (my account with my English email was banned I don't know why)

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    • Sshinka wrote:
      " It gives the game a very anti-Allied feel... "

      IJN was quite anti-Allied...

      I got the feeling that could be a reason, but they aren't explicitly fighting the Allies right now...unless thats how you feel about the Abyssals.

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    • Bloodylord wrote:
      Just a Simple Merchant wrote:

      Any reason why?

      Simple. I don't want my girls to fight each other. I also don't want my girl to feel insecure when they sortie or even when they're in base. The shipgirls looses their past memories, but the memories are still there, they just can't remember exactly. Now putting Allied ships in my base, it's matter of time until they remember, it's not easy to forgive those who killed you and your comrades in the past. This applies to each and every shipgirl, no matter what side she belongs to. If they have to care too much about what if the one stand next to them shoot them like they did in the past, they'll not be able to fight Abyssal. Furthermore, they will not have happy time, and i don't like that.

      A good reason...I appreciate your thoughts. I was thinking about how they would interact with one another and I was kinda going for a compedetive rivalry between them, but none the less I feel you, it would be pretty weird.

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    • your girls guns caliber is listed in metric, and abyssals guns caliber in imperial units.. that should rly be enough to explain who abyssals represent in KC.

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    • I'm open to it, though I think it'll be a long while before we'll see any Allied ships actually implemented. As to the question of the possibility of them being implented in the first place, with Kancolle seemingly IJN/Axis-centric and all...? Well, the game might've started pretty anti-Allied at first but we've been seeing less and less of enemies being straight up based on Allied ships and more on sunken IJN ships instead recently. My own theory is that the Abyssals represent any and all warships sunk in the past, Allied or Axis. They might use Imperial units to measure gun calbers and Allied-inspired equips in general (Mk. series torpedoes, Hellcats n' Helldivers), but come on, Nagano is obviously Nakano+Agano, Warusame is Harusame (lol probably the most obvious one out there), and Midway Hime is an Abyssal Akagi. That's not to say we'll never see an Abyssal based on an Allied vessel ever again, but let's take into consideration the enemies and bosses we've been fighting the past few events... yep, it'd seem like quite a bit of sunken IJN vessels are back to get revenge on our living Kanmusu, eh?

      Story beats aside (I could go more into detail with 'em if you'd like), the reality is that Kadokawa is probably backing off on the Abyssals = Allies concept for whatever various reasons.

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    • I think the only possible American ship is USS Stewart (DD-224), due to its background service before WW2 and lack of any actual combat (that I could find).

      As for GB ships, Thracian (DD) and Moth (PT), particularly the former, could be a possibility.

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    • Sshinka wrote:
      your girls guns caliber is listed in metric, and abyssals guns caliber in imperial units.. that should rly be enough to explain who abyssals represent in KC.

      Certainly believable, but we still don't know where the abyssals come from. Could just be a coincidense, but I did notice that. Personally I don't really want to see Abyssals swap sides but then that doesn't cohere with our ship girls sinking and turning into Abyssyals should that be canon... Guess it can be left to speculation there, unless explicitly told otherwise.

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    • YamagumoKai420 wrote:
      I'm open to it, though I think it'll be a long while before we'll see any Allied ships actually implemented. As to the question of the possibility of them being implented in the first place, with Kancolle seemingly IJN/Axis-centric and all...? Well, the game might've started pretty anti-Allied at first but we've been seeing less and less of enemies being straight up based on Allied ships and more on sunken IJN ships instead recently. My own theory is that the Abyssals represent any and all warships sunk in the past, Allied or Axis. They might use Imperial units to measure gun calbers and Allied-inspired equips in general (Mk. series torpedoes, Hellcats n' Helldivers), but come on, Nagano is obviously Nakano+Agano, Warusame is Harusame (lol probably the most obvious one out there), and Midway Hime is an Abyssal Akagi. That's not to say we'll never see an Abyssal based on an Allied vessel ever again, but let's take into consideration the enemies and bosses we've been fighting the past few events... yep, it'd seem like quite a bit of sunken IJN vessels are back to get revenge on our living Kanmusu, eh?

      Story beats aside (I could go more into detail with 'em if you'd like), the reality is that Kadokawa is probably backing off on the Abyssals = Allies concept for whatever various reasons.

      I would like those details if you have the time. Personally, if Kadokawa wants the Abyssyals to be the Allies, I'm all for it considering that they are the creators of KC and they should be able to do what they want their own stuff. On the otherside, that puts a very bad image out to the public, considering how public that game just got with the release of the anime.

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    • " On the otherside, that puts a very bad image out to the public, considering how public that game just got with the release of the anime."


      After crapload of games all arround the world where you play Allied soldier killing Axis, crapload of games where you can play any side, A game where you play Axis side is "bad image"? Dunno what you are talking about.


      What you are hoping for would in my case poo on  the game's lore, and players like me would leave KC forever.

      If they add Allied ships, as far as i'm concerned they can also add Pokemon and Fluffy Rabbits right away - all the same to me.

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    • Sshinka wrote:
      " On the otherside, that puts a very bad image out to the public, considering how public that game just got with the release of the anime."


      After crapload of games all arround the world where you play Allied soldier killing Axis, crapload of games where you can play any side, A game where you play Axis side is "bad image"? Dunno what you are talking about.


      What you are hoping for would in my case poo on  the game's lore, and players like me would leave KC forever.

      If they add Allied ships, as far as i'm concerned they can also add Pokemon and Fluffy Rabbits right away - all the same to me.

      Well...to each his own, I won't sit here and say you can't feel that way. I appreciate your thoughts.

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    • Sshinka, all you have to do is look at the enemies the game has been introducing recently and you can see that they've gone from an absolute Allies = Abyssals" theme to a more general "Sunken WWII vessels = Abyssals" theme. I'm not against the idea of Abyssals being represented as the Allies myself, but just be open to the trend we've been seeing these past few events: Compare the earlier Abyssals which are blatantly based on Allied-inspired ships/strongholds (Anchorage, Airfield & Harbor Himes, Hoppou) to the just as blatantly IJN-inspired Abyssals we've been getting recently (DD & CL Onis, BB Water Demon), it's pretty dang obvious you can see a shift towards Abyssals not only representing Allied/USN ships, but sunken Axis/IJN ships as well.

      Lore-wise, the game did start off with exclusively Allied-inspired enemies early on, painting a sort of anti-Allied image that a lot of players like yourself really dig, and I get that. But with the introduction of these sunken IJN Abyssals since then, it would seem the game's lore about the Abyssals wasn't ever really "set" to begin with... they can't poop on the lore they've established thus far when that same exact lore still seems to be in development. We don't even know the origins of the Abyssals in the first place, it's all been fan speculation up to this point. In any case, the fact that Kadokawa chose to introduce Abyssals that represent  anything other than Allied ships is pretty big as far as lore/storyline connotations go. We can only speculate on where they'll take things from here... It's something I think we'll be doing for a very long time.

      But the thing that actually matters the most here is that Kadokawa itself seems to be slowly distancing itself from the game's initial "absolute Allied vs. Axis" vibe. Like JaSM mentioned, the reason for this probably has to do with Kancolle's public image. Like any good self-interested business/publisher/developer, KDKW needs to manage Kancolle's public image the best way it can to prolong its success. Now, it's no surprise that WWII is a topic of serious contention in Japan: Any sort of glorification of Imperial Japanese military is drawn into sharp criticism by the Japanese public's eye. Kancolle might just be about cute IJN shipgirls blowing up deepsea aliens that represent the Allied forces that Imperial Japan fought and lost so horrifically against in World Wa.... oh, wait. ...yeeaah, you can kinda see why KDKW would want to ease off on that aspect of the game's story, eh? Especially when considering how unexpectedly huge the franchise has become since the game's launch. Could what they're doing with the Abyssals now be seen as a way of selling out? Maybe, but with a franchise revolving around a such a sensitive topic becoming this big, KDKW has to do what it has to do to keep Kancolle's image as clean as possible. If that means opening up new story avenues so that Allies don't neccesarily = Abyssals, hey, it'd be easy for them.

      Of course, all of this is just my own personal theory. For all I know, we could see a ballz2thawall, F-subtlety Abyssal Hood and Enterprise appear as future event bosses... and man I'd be all for it, if it ever were to happen. I also believe the addition of Allied kanmusu is a possibility - I honestly don't think it'll happen for a long, LONG time, if ever, but I'm not ruling their addition out. Sorry for the wall of text, but I just wanted to get my thoughts out, and hey, some good discussion is always nice.

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    • A mighty wall it is! :)

      Anyway, kinda sorry, i was overreacting a bit.. Even with all the Salt, i really like the game. Guess i'm just affraid of a big shift in it or at worst a change that would bring inballance. I'm one of those people that don't like changing things that work well.

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    • I could have sworn Wo-class was the Enterprise, or rather Yorktown class.

      CV(N) night attack as the game progresses, check

      Able to attack even after Chuuha, check.

      And then there's the name, Yorktown, which is pretty easy to change one letter into Worktown or read it backwards as nwotkroy.


      But, as a counter argument, I haven't been able to work out what the others would have been using the same naming convention. That and there really were no counterparts for BBV and CLT in the WW2 allied fleets, even though abyssal have them.

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    • Worktown...heh, kinda of stretch though. In light of events of the anime, this supports your claim though, as the Enterpise assisted in the Battle of Midway with damaging Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu, though its key role to play in changing fate is questionable :3.

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    • ...I just realized I wasn't signed in when writing that wall of text o_o

      Sshinka, yeah, I totally understand. When it comes to Allied ships being implemented as kanmusu... the question of imbalance due to Allied ships being superior to IJN ships, late war enhancements and all, is definitely valid. It's one of the primary reasons why I doubt we'll see actually them being added anytime soon, unless KDKW goes full retard and/goes on the verge of running out of ideas...

      I think Wo-classes could absolutely represent major Allied carriers as with Operation MI. At the same time, a part of me views Wo as kind of a regular high-ranking enemy, and ships like the Yorktown and Enterprise deserve unique Boss Abyssal designs of their own (if not Yorktown, definitely Enterprise...). Pretty sure MI Wo does represent Yorktown, or at least plays her role.

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    • I want Italian ships. too.  They'll fit into the IJN and Kreigsmarine.

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    • I just had a theory about the Abyssals(not sure if plausible or not):

      1. They came from a meteorite that landed in both Pacific and Atlantic.

      1.2. They ate lots of numerous allied supply ships then hunt for DD and etc. Dey get stronger.

      2. They came from top secret experiment from "whatever" country.

      2.1. Look at 1.2


      And no, if the allied naval forces come, the naval district will be a battlefield. Though it won't be a bad idea to me, both sides working together to destroy Abyssals.

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    • 108.180.255.203 wrote:
      I want Italian ships. too.  They'll fit into the IJN and Kreigsmarine.

      I'm afraid that balance issue with the US ships would come into play...for the worst on Italy's part. But I certainly would like exposure to their ships as we don't tend to hear of Italy's Navy, even if it is for the reasons that they are. (No offence...but it sucked.)

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    • 171.96.182.114 wrote:
      I just had a theory about the Abyssals(not sure if plausible or not):

      1. They came from a meteorite that landed in both Pacific and Atlantic.

      1.2. They ate lots of numerous allied supply ships then hunt for DD and etc. Dey get stronger.

      2. They came from top secret experiment from "whatever" country.

      2.1. Look at 1.2


      And no, if the allied naval forces come, the naval district will be a battlefield. Though it won't be a bad idea to me, both sides working together to destroy Abyssals.

      Hilarious, "ate the shipgirls" I kinda want to see that in action.

      Pluasible theory is that the Allies had already gone against the Abyssals and lost...though that doesn't make sense on a mechanical standpoint but no less entertaining.

      Equally, the Allies could be off fighting the Abyssals in their own territory, which is why their inclusion wouldn't be nonsensical. Axis and Allies fighting as allies has already been done by Strike Witches, and I personally find it more believable that they're allies in this fight.

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    • My theory is that the developers made it as if the Allied ships WERE the Abyssals; In Episode 7, the Wo-class carrier is turned into a one-eyed Wo, and in Episode 12, she is sunk during the MI operation: I'm not mistaken, but it seems as if 1-eye Wo represents USS Yorktown, the only Allied carrier sunk during the battle. 

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    • At this point...can we even consider the anime canon? (Jokes jokes, but it's getting a lot of hate :D) True true. Gad, I just want the devs to come out with it...WHAT ARE THEY?

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    • The anime can't be canon... not because it sucked balls, but simply because the game has precedent over it. If we ever get an answer to just what they are, we probably won't see it in the anime until the game drops it first: The anime needs to play into the framework the game - the flagship product of the entire series, sets up.

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    • It should be noted...the anime only has to follow through with the lore of the game, not the mechanics.

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    • Just a Simple Merchant wrote:
      It should be noted...the anime only has to follow through with the lore of the game, not the mechanics.

      But it was certainly enjoyable when I see inside jokes or mechanics which could only be understood by KC players. The part where Akagi eats ALOT. The part where Yamato gets hungry after 2 secs. The part where they wrestle for air control in the last episode. I got a good laugh when I saw the "expedition failure" from the 6div girls. There was an AA CI from Fubuki as well.. 

      Game has always been the core

      First and foremost, I would believe most should agree that the game precedes the anime. The game was the core product and the anime was developed, probably as an afterthought after the game was well received and also because the accompanying peripheral manga, dramacd, doujin(maybe) were well received. The anime was developed to partly reward the fanbase and I would suggest that it aims to draw in even more players. At the end of the day, it was aimed at boosting sales. The increased in player numbers would support this. Similarly, an game or real life product followed by an anime tends to be a decent formula in the anime industry, examples are animes such as Gundam Build Fighters, Pokemon, Rage of Bahamut, all the other TCG, etc. 

      KC designer used WWII ships, battles and events as inspiration 

      That being the case, we would have to consider and gleemed into the mind(s) of the chief game designer as the one who conceptualise the game. If I have to describe this game to my friends, I would summarize it this way 'A web based game involving personification of WW2 IJN ships'. I would suggest that this is a game full of Japanese patriotism which views the WWII from the lens of by and large the Japanese public. Looking at the missions, the past events and even the expeditions, the developments and designers of KC have heavily modeled the game after real life events and battles. Even the equipments are supposedly modeled after real life counterparts, at least to a large portion. 

      The Abyssal fleet must have been a reference to the Allied ships

      Since the battles and ships follow the real life counterparts and events. It would logically follow that the adversary / enemy in the game must have been modelled after the Allied ships. The various battles around World 1 to 6 suggests this. The events depending on the date it starts even tend to correspond with the past operations. As the various other posters have kindly pointed out, many of the players were able to find similarities in the abyssal and the real life allied ships. It amazes when players were able to predict the upcoming events based on historic battles and even able to make an intelligent guess whether it would be an event which requires lots of Reppus because of the fact that the similar past historic event featured alot of allied CVs. 

      Allied ships will not be added into the playable ships, at least not in the near future

      Because there are actually 2 clear sides to WWII, I can safely say that allied ships will not be added in the near future. This has much to do with Japanese culture and how they viewed WWII. From the game and the various manga and the way they handle their affairs, Japan tends to take the view that they were not at fault for starting the war. I dont want to go into a debate about this but one can contrast this stand with the Germans who were constantly reflecting about their mistakes so that it doesnt happen again. Given that how this game was supposed to be "within Japan" only, (those of you who spoof cookie, API, VPN etc are not supposedly part of their intended playerbase), I would believe that it would run contrary to their policy to add in allied ships. I can only imagine the possible backlash back in Japan. It doesnt make any sense when you are trying to depict WWII and you have both sides of the team now in the same team. 

      But... there are alot of inconsistencies which suggest otherwise

      The anime is there and seemed to add slightly more lore into the game. There is also some scenes which is pretty much inconsistent with the view that it was depicting WWII straightup. 

      1) The fact that the ships that were supposed to be sunk were not. Well Kisaragi was kind of sad. We have no idea where did Shouhou went, she didnt participate in the last battle. This slight deviation is only going to grow over time.

      2) The hint and suggestion that the ship girls are reliving events which had happened in the past is the biggest wrench to the "we are depicting WWII" theory. This pretty much changes it to "we are using WWII as a background for inspiration and modifying to our own needs". Is this a good thing? I would think so. If not, I would hate to see half of the ship girls being sunk and by the end of the game / anime, I wouldnt even have a fleet left. From the game POV, this also gives the developers flexibility so they can pretty much make up a story to fit their needs and need not follow the WWI script exactly.

      3) The floating hairpin which supposedly belonged to Kisaragi. This throws up the possibilties of what might the Abyssal be. On one hand, the abyssals are NOT allied ships, because objectively they are not stated as such. However they portray the allied ships and seemed to depict them. Altho the game has largely followed the formula of abyssal follows the allied ship as models, the floating hairpin suggests that they might have links with sunken ships.

      4) Inconsistency with the history. Certain ships have equipment they are not supposed to have. Certain battles didnt play out exactly the way it is supposed to happen. I would think that there is no history professor in their KC development team and they might have consulted some authority regarding the war but it is inevitable to have some mistakes every now and then provided they are not fatal. This pretty much applies to every game. Throw in a game about some engineer and you can get engineers pointing stuff out that dont make any logical sense.  

      Moving forward, what can we reasonably expect?

      From the developers' viewpoint, they already have ample materials to work on. They will simply flesh out the war and let it follow its course but amend it for their own benefit because I dont want all my ships to be gone by the end of the war. This would mean that upcoming events and future missions should occur in chronological order. They still have decent material to do it.

      New ships that might be released into the IJN fleet will also try to follow the chronological order. 

      "According to a quarterly mook 艦これ鎮守府生活のすゝめVol.1 which was released in 2013, there are plans to implement new (Ukuru-class) escort ships, and because their displacement is less than that of destroyers, they would take a younger form, but they are said to be for the final phase of the war and thus, while they want to release it as soon as possible, they have told the fanbase to please be patient about it." (From the Easter Eggs page)

      Are allied ships entirely impossible?

      This being a game, the rule of thumb would be to never say never. If they are ever going to add in allied ships, it might be after they have played out the entire war and exhausted all their possibilities and then probably they might add it in. But it would surely be a long time away. 

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    • Good write-up! ^ I never got the impression that the game was ever trying to depict a historically accurate version of the Pacific War. If it did, the game would FORCE our kanmusu to get permanently disabled/sunk, event after event. I wouldn't worry about it... events are implemented to be completed/won by the player, after all. Whatever struggles an Admiral goes through to clear an event is all on him/her. And of course, if a kanmusu is sunk, it's because the TTK was kuso, not because the game required it to happen for the sake of following historical events. Come to think of it, this is actually another reason why I can't openly accept the anime as the canon of the entire franchise in terms of story... if it was, it'd automatically supercede the players' own personal experiences with the game... their struggles and victories, even their perceptions of the characters they know and love, etc. Also, given just how kuso the anime TTK was... eeghh.

      Up to this point, it seems like the game's devs have been using the IJN's WWII campaign as a type of very, very loose framework to tell their own Shipgirl vs. Abyssal story. Them not being tied directly to following historical events have allowed them to take the story in as many different avenues as they want. We've started the game fighting Abyssals that represent the Allies, but don't forget, we're now also fighting Abyssals that represent IJN ships/our very own girls. And historically, did the Bismarck fight alongside the Kongou-class in joint KM/IJN sorties? Nope, but it happens on a daily basis in the world the devs set up, all because of that same loose interpretation of history.

      When it comes to the question of how and why former WWII adversaries would join forces... well, this is gonna go outside the scope of Kancolle "lore" as we know it, but did anyone ever get the impression the Abyssals present a global problem? You couldn't just cut Pacific trade routes without also disrupting trade across rest of the world, right? The game focuses on the IJN kanmusu fighting the Abyssals in their home seas... but consider the addition of the Germans, who hail from the Atlantic. Just how and why did this happen, exactly? One popular theory (that even the anime even adopts, interestingly enough), suggests that the kanmusu exist to eliminate the Abyssals, to "bring peace back to the seas". Would this mean the seas around Germany and the rest of the EU are infested with Abyssals as well? Why else would KM vessels like Bismarck and Prinz be able to take kanmusu form - Would it really be only just for the sake of joining IJN kanmusu's fight, halfway across the world in the Pacific? On that note, does Germany have some sort of kanmusu "program" of its own, and are they lend-leasing their girls to the JMSDF, or whatever organization we as TTKs are a part of...?

      "OK, but Japan and Germany were both former Axis Powers... where do Allied ships fit into all of this?" Well, many of the same questions above could be posed to ponder the possibility of the existence (not necessarily the in-game implementation) of Allied kanmusu, too. Another important thing to note is that Kancolle seems to take place within our own, current world, not in some kind of alternate world/history: Girls mention smartphones, watching anime airing late at night, and most importantly, mention the existence of present-day JMSDF ships being equipped with the American-designed AEGIS weapons system. This confirms that the JMSDF had been formed in the first place after the actual events of WWII (thus, the actual IJN being disbanded as a result), but even more importantly, it confirms the alliance of post-WWII era United States and Japan in the Kancolle world. If the kanmusu of the former KM (and the recently-speculated RM) can join the IJN kamusu's fight against the Abyssals, why wouldn't countries of former Allied navies, (especially since many of those navies are now allied with Japan) also get involved?

      All of that might've been bit long-winded, but there are also smaller interesting quirks that you can think about when wondering about Allied kanmusu. Let's take Kongou's history (I guess you could also call it her backstory?), for example. Imperial Japan commissioned her to be built by the Vickers Shipbuilding Company of England, who also, interestingly enough, produced 2 other warships for the IJN, including the legendary IJN BB Mikasa. That very same shipyard would go on to produce dozens of warships built for the Royal Navy in the years leading up to, and during WWII (most notably the Illustrious-class CVs). The question here is, if Kongou was able to take a kanmusu form, why can't other warships that came out of the same factory she did, do the same?

      Completely valid counter-arguements can include: Because the Allies really are the bad guys, plain and simple. Because despite already featuring ships from other nations, the game is called "Kantai" Collection, is made by the Japanese for the Japanese market, and therefore should be IJN-centric. Because adding Allied ships, especially those which were superior to any IJN vessels, would severely unbalance the game. Because Allied kanmusu fighting against Abyssal representations of Allied vessels would be kinda weird (though that's exactly what our IJN girls have been doing recently). Yes, I fully realize I'm overthinking things, but man do I enjoy thinking and theorizing about Kancolle. How can I not, when so much of the story and its world is still so unknown?

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    • Sshinka
      Sshinka removed this reply because:
      my post, incorrect data, without paying attention to previous post
      01:11, March 29, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Speaking of Allied ships, the scuttled USS Stewart (DD-224) was salvaged by the Japanese in 1943, and converted into Patrol Boat no. 102. So there might be only ONE exception...

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    • Personally, I can see British, French and Soviet ships but I think the franchise will lose its popularity and close before the first American vessel gets in. Because it gets messy and it is not even a matter of playbalance, the feelings of the Japanese kanmusu and so on.

      It is probably possible to tweak things so American ships are not balance breakers. For example, the Brooklyns can be lumped into heavy cruisers (because that's really what they are except for having 6-inch guns!) and all American cruisers can have no torpedo stat. The survivability advantage will only be 1 or 2 HP and the fire control advantage can be "dispersed" into various directors and radars, allowing you to take them and put them into your Japanese kanmusu (in essence, each American ship comes with a "Mark 37 director" and a "SG radar").

      Maybe we can even get it to the point where if you take off all the radars and directors they come with, US ships actually quietly have lower than average accuracy and LOS stat. And we can play games with the American destroyers pre-Kai torpedo stat (bad early-war Yank torpedoes). There are lots of ways to shaft them with at least a bit of historical justification if you look :-)

      Still as we know, the Americans have a lot of ships. If Japan's ships can be clearing out as much sea area, with America's fleet, they should have cleaned out the rest of the world by now, which obviously is not the case. Further, if we say that they send ships to other countries, their vast contingent will mean a substantial presence in every country, probably outnumbering the "local" kanmusu. In short, despite how *little* canon this game has, American fleet girls will still collide with its presentation so far.

      Further, while there is a move towards less explicitly USN bosses, overall the world's base is already set up by this time, and the Abyssal mooks up to the Wo-class still have great links to the Allies (whatever they are thinking, it is too late to change that). Only the torpedo cruisers they have look more Japanese than Allied. Even now we have IJN bosses on maps that look a lot like USN-attacking :-)

      So, I think, unfortunately, *most* Abyssals are American. Not all, but most. Probably they are made when America tries to turn its oversized fleet into kanmusu. Unfortunately, what they failed to understand (being a Christian country) is that gods get their power from "love" - love when they are built, love when they are used, and love from the people. Since the average American wartime ship gets stamped out with record speed and there are so many of them even Americans often remember IJN ships more than their ships ... most of their ships degrade into Abyssals. America is left pinned to its coast by the Abyssal kanmusu its making, and defended by the relatively few American ships that people actually remember - the pre-war classes like Yorktown class CV and a relative handful of wartime classes that \did something people actually remember. Yet they can't stop producing, because their shipgirls are being killed like flies, and so they keep producing and keep making more of both, some of which make their away across the ocean.

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    • I agree that Abyssals up to the Wo-class could absolutely represent USN vessels, but given that they're an unspecific "normal" enemy, they could play the role of any carrier that the player might want to see them as. When it comes to major USN ships, wouldn't it make sense for Abyssals to take a form that more explicitly represents USN vessels...? I can't imagine USN capital ships like the Iowa or Missouri simply being represented by a Ru-Class, or the Enterprise just being a Wo-Class, especially since we have Abyssal enemies that so specifically resemble IJN vessels. I think we're really gonna have to see how the devs will represent future Abyssal bosses.

      That's an excellent theory as to how the situation of other country's kanmusu may be faring against the Abyssals in their own waters. The anime touches on the idea of kanmusu being reborn as Abyssals, implying a sort of neverending cycle: For as long as kanmusu are lost in the war against the Abyssals, they'll eventually be reborn as Abyssals themselves. The game even hints as this, too: Just last event, AC Princess's sinking line mentions to the extent of "This will repeat, if you won't change..." "Change" what, exactly...? My guess is war in general, but I dunno, our seas IRL have been actually failry peaceful compared to how bitterly contested they were in WWII. Obviously, the real answer to the question is a key part of the Abyssal's goal/s and why they're blockading our seas in the first place. There's definitely quite a bit of stuff we can infer on from here, I just don't think we know enough as of yet.

      If the Abyssal threat truly is global, the situation you describe in which the American kanmusu may be facing to protect their own seas could be possible. While the overall atrittion rate of the USN fleet was much less than the IJN during the course of WWII, in the same way IJN kanmusu are now fighting against Abyssalized versions of themselves, the USN kanmusu could be doing the exact same thing, perhaps with even greater rates of their kanmusu falling to Abyssals as you mention. It's pretty believable, considering 'Merica's penchant of taking advantage its of large-scale production capacity and throwing huge quantities of mateirial to eliminate the opposing force... it's totally possible might've met their match in their fight against the Abyssals.

      This is seriously getting into Kancolle: Expanded Universe terriory. Super interesting stuff to think about for sure, though.

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    • Vyrena wrote:
      Just a Simple Merchant wrote:
      It should be noted...the anime only has to follow through with the lore of the game, not the mechanics.
      But it was certainly enjoyable when I see inside jokes or mechanics which could only be understood by KC players. The part where Akagi eats ALOT. The part where Yamato gets hungry after 2 secs. The part where they wrestle for air control in the last episode. I got a good laugh when I saw the "expedition failure" from the 6div girls. There was an AA CI from Fubuki as well.. 

      Game has always been the core

      First and foremost, I would believe most should agree that the game precedes the anime. The game was the core product and the anime was developed, probably as an afterthought after the game was well received and also because the accompanying peripheral manga, dramacd, doujin(maybe) were well received. The anime was developed to partly reward the fanbase and I would suggest that it aims to draw in even more players. At the end of the day, it was aimed at boosting sales. The increased in player numbers would support this. Similarly, an game or real life product followed by an anime tends to be a decent formula in the anime industry, examples are animes such as Gundam Build Fighters, Pokemon, Rage of Bahamut, all the other TCG, etc. 

      KC designer used WWII ships, battles and events as inspiration 

      That being the case, we would have to consider and gleemed into the mind(s) of the chief game designer as the one who conceptualise the game. If I have to describe this game to my friends, I would summarize it this way 'A web based game involving personification of WW2 IJN ships'. I would suggest that this is a game full of Japanese patriotism which views the WWII from the lens of by and large the Japanese public. Looking at the missions, the past events and even the expeditions, the developments and designers of KC have heavily modeled the game after real life events and battles. Even the equipments are supposedly modeled after real life counterparts, at least to a large portion. 

      The Abyssal fleet must have been a reference to the Allied ships

      Since the battles and ships follow the real life counterparts and events. It would logically follow that the adversary / enemy in the game must have been modelled after the Allied ships. The various battles around World 1 to 6 suggests this. The events depending on the date it starts even tend to correspond with the past operations. As the various other posters have kindly pointed out, many of the players were able to find similarities in the abyssal and the real life allied ships. It amazes when players were able to predict the upcoming events based on historic battles and even able to make an intelligent guess whether it would be an event which requires lots of Reppus because of the fact that the similar past historic event featured alot of allied CVs. 

      Allied ships will not be added into the playable ships, at least not in the near future

      Because there are actually 2 clear sides to WWII, I can safely say that allied ships will not be added in the near future. This has much to do with Japanese culture and how they viewed WWII. From the game and the various manga and the way they handle their affairs, Japan tends to take the view that they were not at fault for starting the war. I dont want to go into a debate about this but one can contrast this stand with the Germans who were constantly reflecting about their mistakes so that it doesnt happen again. Given that how this game was supposed to be "within Japan" only, (those of you who spoof cookie, API, VPN etc are not supposedly part of their intended playerbase), I would believe that it would run contrary to their policy to add in allied ships. I can only imagine the possible backlash back in Japan. It doesnt make any sense when you are trying to depict WWII and you have both sides of the team now in the same team. 

      But... there are alot of inconsistencies which suggest otherwise

      The anime is there and seemed to add slightly more lore into the game. There is also some scenes which is pretty much inconsistent with the view that it was depicting WWII straightup. 

      1) The fact that the ships that were supposed to be sunk were not. Well Kisaragi was kind of sad. We have no idea where did Shouhou went, she didnt participate in the last battle. This slight deviation is only going to grow over time.

      2) The hint and suggestion that the ship girls are reliving events which had happened in the past is the biggest wrench to the "we are depicting WWII" theory. This pretty much changes it to "we are using WWII as a background for inspiration and modifying to our own needs". Is this a good thing? I would think so. If not, I would hate to see half of the ship girls being sunk and by the end of the game / anime, I wouldnt even have a fleet left. From the game POV, this also gives the developers flexibility so they can pretty much make up a story to fit their needs and need not follow the WWI script exactly.

      3) The floating hairpin which supposedly belonged to Kisaragi. This throws up the possibilties of what might the Abyssal be. On one hand, the abyssals are NOT allied ships, because objectively they are not stated as such. However they portray the allied ships and seemed to depict them. Altho the game has largely followed the formula of abyssal follows the allied ship as models, the floating hairpin suggests that they might have links with sunken ships.

      4) Inconsistency with the history. Certain ships have equipment they are not supposed to have. Certain battles didnt play out exactly the way it is supposed to happen. I would think that there is no history professor in their KC development team and they might have consulted some authority regarding the war but it is inevitable to have some mistakes every now and then provided they are not fatal. This pretty much applies to every game. Throw in a game about some engineer and you can get engineers pointing stuff out that dont make any logical sense.  

      Moving forward, what can we reasonably expect?

      From the developers' viewpoint, they already have ample materials to work on. They will simply flesh out the war and let it follow its course but amend it for their own benefit because I dont want all my ships to be gone by the end of the war. This would mean that upcoming events and future missions should occur in chronological order. They still have decent material to do it.

      New ships that might be released into the IJN fleet will also try to follow the chronological order. 

      "According to a quarterly mook 艦これ鎮守府生活のすゝめVol.1 which was released in 2013, there are plans to implement new (Ukuru-class) escort ships, and because their displacement is less than that of destroyers, they would take a younger form, but they are said to be for the final phase of the war and thus, while they want to release it as soon as possible, they have told the fanbase to please be patient about it." (From the Easter Eggs page)

      Are allied ships entirely impossible?

      This being a game, the rule of thumb would be to never say never. If they are ever going to add in allied ships, it might be after they have played out the entire war and exhausted all their possibilities and then probably they might add it in. But it would surely be a long time away. 

      OP: I'm using a different computer and I'm too lazy to log in, I'll be offline for quite some time but I'll be back by next week. Thanks for the amount of thought put into that, that was a nice way to break that down and deliver it. I really would like to see an Allied ship, but certainly not now, I would rather clean house on the German and Italian ships before we see Allied ships.

      For now, I'll offline for few more days then I'll be able to respond to responces.

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    • deh japanese prolly developed it through shinto and spam the tailsman, recently shared to deh axis. USN and co. are prolly having problems cause no shipgurlz. Maybe germany is about to fall, so furhur sent his fleet to japan to liberate germany later. :v

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    • The biggest challenge with American ships is that there are just too many of them that would be deserving of being in the game. I know all of us are well aware of the ship cap limit, and I don't think all of us have spent $140 to open up all the slots. The number of ships now looks to be a good number to have with the overall game mechanics. Adding a few ships each year won't break the game, especially if they are as hard to earn as the German ships are, but too many American ships may very well. The Pokemon games were able to deal with this problem by only greatly increasing the number of pokemon when there was a great increase in content, i.e. releasing a new game. UNS ships offer a real incentive for players to play any major expansion that might occur.

       

      A second problem to consider with UNS ships is how powerful they should be. This isn't a problem that would prevent their inclusion into the game, only something that could determine if their entrance is a success or failure. How powerful should the USS Enterprise (CV-5) be with it being one of the deadliest ships in human history? How powerful should the Essex class of carriers be considering they saw service up to the Vietnam War and spent most of their lifespan with jets?

       



      I want to see US and British ships in Kantai Collection, but only a few ships would be able to enter with how the game currently is.

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    • My apologies. USS Enterprise is CV-6. I will now perform seppuku to regain my honor.

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    • I am back and kickin' so you all know.

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    • My thought is this: surely it could be all right to get away with the Big 7? If we just include those Allied ships and no other, I don't see the problem even if including lots is a bad idea.

      I do think it wouldn't be good to have too many non-Japanese ships. Like the handful of Germans, they should all essentially have guest star status. It would be awesome to have as many boat girls as there are boats, but this is a Japanese game in the end.

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    • ^ Agree with the person before me about having a limit on foreign guest stars. Just the IJN and perhaps JMSDF would have more than enough characters to cluster up the roster. 

      Another factor to consider is equipment. While inherent stats are important, at the end of the day arguably it is really the equipment that makes the kanmusu. Wherever I go, I find people bragging about how good American technology was (and is) when compared to the IJN, or pretty much everyone else, so they say (which I think they do have a point, annoying as they may be). In other words, good equipment they would have, as kanmusu.

      So.... Don't like your foreign shipgirl? Well, don't hate her equipment! Take 'em off, put her away (or dispose of her in your manner of choice, if you feel the part) and put 'em on your waifu. Profit! =D

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    • I want to see how they portray them. IJN Cv's and CVL's are depicted as archers, summoners (scroll that puts out planes) and one crossbow woman. 

      I would imagine the USN Carriers and light carriers depicted as American revolution riflemen, sailors, and a few archers cause Indian/European heritage. 

      The American carriers would most likely use kentucky rifles to bring out their planes. I don't know what type of bullet would a B22 bomber be sealed in. 

      I don't know how they would portray BBs cuz some of the IJN BBs are depicted as miko.

      I already imagined an art where if the BB Washington would debut, the USN Washington kanmusu is crossing the Pacific on a boat with either sailors and fellow kanmusus rowing the boat landing on I don't know Pearl Harbour. Would have an axe as a melee weapon and would prank and scare Kirishima with it cuz history. 

      I guess my reason I'm waiting for USN ships is to see how they are portrayed in game, artworks and doujins. 

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    • The Big 7 idea is actually a very great idea. And the limited roster of foreigners as "guests" is a nice way to look at it too.

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    • Sorry to put another large block of text here, but I really feel like this theory needs to be mentioned as it does play a rather large role in whether or not Allied ships could be added to Kancolle.

      Ok here it is-

      Do you all remember that crossover event with Arpeggio of Blue Steel that happened awhile back? I personally wasn't there for it but I have seen videos of the event and Im familliar with Arpeggio lore. Ok, if you don't look it up, if you do, remember that and bear with me for alittle here. 

      Ok, so it is obvious that the anime is supposed to add to the games lore, whether or not it sucks isn't the matter here but what it says at the very beggining of the Anime- WWII never happened, the Abyssals appeared, from where no one knows, and they began to destroy the navies of the world, consuming saliors and ships of the Navies of the world, and because they probably consumed various admirals, captians, and such in thier attacks, they probably got ahold of the stratagies that the Allied and Axis powers would have used to combat eachother, sort of absorbing that info, and trying to use it to thier atvantage. This is why in the Anime it ends up being so important for the girls to break from the history of the battle, because the Abbysal are using the US battle plan in case base MI (Midway) was ever attacked. By breaking from the historical norm, the Japanese ship girls can win against the Allied battle plan.

      Well what about the Allies? And the US? you may ask. They beat the Japanese fleet historically, so they shouldnt have trouble cleaning out the Abyssals that represent the Japanese navy, and cleaning out the Pacific Theater right? Well you are... Technically... the US did beat the Japanese, but not because the Japanese used thier planned strategy, because according to Japanese strategy, for those of you who remained awake in history class, the plan was NOT to stop at Pearl Harbor. The plan was to continue on to the California coast line and take out the then much smaller US navy, becuae (also mentioned in history class) the US production machine did not kick up UNTIL the US offically entered WWII. Before that the US was in the Depression, factories wheren't activly producing ships. The entire reason the US overproduced ships like that was to replace all the ships lost at Pearl Harbor, and then to have enough ships to fight back the Japanese, had Admiral Yamoto (the Admiral in charge of the Pearl Harbor attacks) moved on, instead of deciding to pull back to resupply his fleet, the war in the Pacific could have gone on ALOT longer.

      AH, but according to this theroy the Abyssals only absorbed plans, not later decisions, so in this Uninverse, the Japanese Parallel Abysal Fleet moved on to the California coast line and proceded to decimate the barely prepared US forces. This gives us an explanation as to the devide between the US and JSN forces, because the Abysals where much more agressive than the Japanese in taking US waters, and so it would take a lot longer for the US to push back the Abyssals, and also explains the parallels between the US ships and the Abysal ships we all see in Kancolle. 

      So, you may say, where do the Abysal come from? Well this leads me back to the Arpeggio crossover mentioned before. While Kancolle may not exist in the exact same universe as Arpeggio, the event leads me to the possiblity that the two universes are connected in some way as to allow characters from each universe to meet. Laides and Gentleman, what I belive is that somehow the Abysals are connected to the Fleet of Fog. Perhaps an experiment by the fleet to create a better, more effective version of themselves. Realizing that intigrating human strategy into thier battle plans (as seen in Arpeggio) has atvantages, the Fleet of Fog build this new speices to absorb human data, human nature, in an attempt to create a better form of Fog ship. Something goes wrong. The Fleet creates a new life form, a symbiote type lifeform (think venom from spiderman, which might also explain why all the Abysal ships are blackish) but the  lifeform starts to go out of control, the Fleet of Fog cannot control it. Using thier advanced Technology, the Fleet ejects the newly born Abyssal ooze into space/ parallel dimension/ etc. to end up landing on a early to mid 20th century Earth. The ooze evolves and begins to attack ships on the planet, absorbing and consuming the vessels and thier crew. Just as with the Fleet of fog, Humanity on this planet ends up cornered by this new threat, forced from thier oceans, and away from eachother, as each of thier warships are absorbed, and changed into diffrent forms, but also realizing the need for diffrent ships than what it is absorbing to work in it's hive the ooze replicates farther and creates the torpedo ships we see the Abysal fleet using in Kancolle (explaining why the Abyssal fleet has torpedo ships, when the allies didnt have any for the ooze to absorb).


      Now what does this mean for us as fans... not much really, besides a new theroy to throw arround. after all if this great, replicating ooze is seperating the fleets, it is unlikely that the two will meet until they manage to push both fleets back completley, and locate the source (hey, but it would make for an awesome final boss battle, the Japanese Fleet girls are being pushed back, but then out of nowhere, the US pacific Fleet Girls come in to assist them). But what it could mean for us, and even better yet, DMM, is that they can relase the game in new form in diffrent countires if enough interest is generated. A version of the game released in the US could instead star US fleet girls, and would give DMM a new source of income. Now, this is unlikley (at the moment), as enough interest would have to be genrated within the states to justify creating an office full of designers, and placing servers over here, but if enough interest can be generated, and the market looks like it might be viable to them over here, then maybe we could see the US fleet girls in that form. Until then, we can only hope, dream, and create lots and lots o' fan art... and hopefully fan games. I don't know about you guys, but I think a Kancolle conversion mod for Valkyiria Chronicles would be awesome, or at least some kind of Kancolle TBS (turn based strategy) game.

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    • I think DMM should hire you.

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    • @24.10.135.95

      "or at least some kind of Kancolle TBS (turn based strategy) game."

      You're in luck.

      http://gematsu.com/2015/03/kan-colle-kai-screenshots-detail-game-systems


      For this topic, think of this from Japanese dev POV,

      How to make more American/British ships w/o pulling a clone Atago/Kongou/Blonde German Ship motif? Can Japanese even simulate American personas?

      How to make more Russian ships w/o pulling another Verniy (cold, kuudere char)/maybe a vodka drunk persona? Are there even any notable Russian ships from WWII?

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    • Bloodylord wrote:
      Just a Simple Merchant wrote:

      Any reason why?

      Simple. I don't want my girls to fight each other. I also don't want my girl to feel insecure when they sortie or even when they're in base. The shipgirls looses their past memories, but the memories are still there, they just can't remember exactly. Now putting Allied ships in my base, it's matter of time until they remember, it's not easy to forgive those who killed you and your comrades in the past. This applies to each and every shipgirl, no matter what side she belongs to. If they have to care too much about what if the one stand next to them shoot them like they did in the past, they'll not be able to fight Abyssal. Furthermore, they will not have happy time, and i don't like that.


      Or It could be complete Shenanigans. I'll use The USS Lexington aka "The Blue Ghost."

      Girls could be roaming around the Naval District, chuckling and getting along, when out of nowhere, Lexington would pop out and scare them and be giggling maniacally, while Hornet and Iowa would simply sigh and drag her away, apologizing. 

      Now, I'm not attacking your head cannon or the games canon, I dont see the Abyssals as the Allied forces, despite them taking on their roles in the battles. I think its along the lines that the Abyssals represent [b]Sunk[/b] ships returning, with a primarily Allied ship count, making that appear to be the case, while the actual Allied might remember these same tactics they used in the past, and be able to counter act them as they would know each part of it. 


      But thats Just a Theory. -shrugs-

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    • I have an idea.  Maybe you can have Allied ships.

      We currently see the Abyssals attacking shipgirls with Japanese, German, or Italian names.  The Abyssals seem to have Allied names.

      What we don't see is the Abyssals attacking shipgirls with American, British, French, etc. names closer to the, let's say, American coast.  The Abyssals seem to have Axis names.

      Maybe, some time in the future, like Season 2, a Japanese shipgirl task force sails and meets up with an American shipgirl task force.  Say Musashi and five Japanese shipgirls meet up with Enterprise and five American shipgirls.  Say Bismarck or Italia or Roma, and five Axis shipgirls meet up with Nelson or King George V or Richelieu, and five Allied shipgirls.

      And the shipgirls fight Abyssals armed with metric and imperial-sized weapons, and have planes like Abyssalcats, Helldivers, Abyssal Zeros, and Abyssal Stukas.

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    • I am actually surprised despite how old this thread is - it continues to be the subject that still continues to be discussed. Let me guess, the people who continue it are those hoping in vain for Allied ships such as the likes of Iowa-class or even Enterprise?

      Needless to say is that:

      • For starters there are plenty of ships Kadokawa has yet to add in, there is even that famous Amagiri destroyer which rammed and destroyed a patrol boat.
      • Time and time again the targets or the abyssals we as players are fighting against are mostly allied targets. Sure they have included some axis ships such as CL oni, BB water oni, or even DD hime but again chances of us getting allied ships are rare considering there are yet many more axis ships that Kadokawa can add.
      • There are Chinese rip-off games whom allows the use of and are not limited to allied ships and/or abyssal units. That is really another avenue for all these people who desires so much of allied units being playable characters.
      • The language barrier imposed by adding the real stats and equips of allied ships. Theoretically yes it is possible to add stats and equips basing from some of those abyssal ships whom most of us already knew they were based off real life allied ships but with rather insane stats however, adding description about the ship and all into a Japanese game using Japanese would be yet another interesting limitation for the game developers themselves.

      If you were to look at this from a perspective, axis ships are probably easier to implement given the fact some of which the information are freely available. Ok sure, not so much for foreign axis ships. Also it probably stems as some dreams of certain equipment and or setup that a ship historically never had but the game offers that. Examples of these are Ju87Kai and Bismarck drei.

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    • I'll just post some facts that seems yet to be mentioned.

      http://www.famitsu.com/news/201309/08039659.html/ 

      In this interview taken in Sep 2013, Mr. Tanaka (the producer of KanColle) mentioned that he intends to implant "many nation's ships", he listed Germany, America and Italy as examples.

      And BTW, everything else except American ships mentioned in the interview above has already became reality.(anime, exotic ships, wedding system)

      One last thing, by Tanaka's announcement in Comptiq Oct. 2013, Abbysal ships came from "the negative thoughts of the sunken ships of BOTH SIDES". This is probably one of the most oftenly neglected or forgotten official settings of Kancolle, another one being "ship girls just loses their equipment and become normal girls after being dismantled".

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    • Sorry, one correction of the post above, Tanaka said ships from England (イギリス), not Italy(イタリア). Also, I seemd to have typo-ed "implement" as "implant" (lol-ed when sb. corrected me on an wiki page edit).

      Don't have an account so I can't edit it, sorry.

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    • 140.112.5.4 wrote:
      I'll just post some facts that seems yet to be mentioned.

      http://www.famitsu.com/news/201309/08039659.html/

      In this interview taken in Sep 2013, Mr. Tanaka (the producer of KanColle) mentioned that he intends to implant "many nation's ships", he listed Germany, America and Italy as examples.

      And BTW, everything else except American ships mentioned in the interview above has already became reality.(anime, exotic ships, wedding system)

      One last thing, by Tanaka's announcement in Comptiq Oct. 2013, Abbysal ships came from "the negative thoughts of the sunken ships of BOTH SIDES". This is probably one of the most oftenly neglected or forgotten official settings of Kancolle, another one being "ship girls just loses their equipment and become normal girls after being dismantled".

      ...? sorry, gonna call BS on that. its a dead link.

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    • It isn't a dead link - there is a trailing forward slash. The link should work now: http://www.famitsu.com/news/201309/08039659.html

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    • Implementing the more famous American ships would be problematic.

      The USS Enterprise and Phoenix would be Higher-than-God Tier. Invincible ships that engage in constant battle, and could never be sunk despite massive attacks aimed at them. Read up on the history!

      The Enterprise also flies the British Admiralty Pennant, the only foreign ship ever given that honor by Britain.

      They could wipe out the Japanese armada, since that's what they did.

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    • 71.209.52.150 wrote:
      Implementing the more famous American ships would be problematic.

      The USS Enterprise and Phoenix would be Higher-than-God Tier. Invincible ships that engage in constant battle, and could never be sunk despite massive attacks aimed at them. Read up on the history!

      The Enterprise also flies the British Admiralty Pennant, the only foreign ship ever given that honor by Britain.

      They could wipe out the Japanese armada, since that's what they did.

      Just nerf them, the devs have already nerfed Type IXc (U-511) for the convenience of the game itself, in case if you don't know, the carriers as a whole were seriously nerfed in almost all naval games as well.

      I think they will give Big E some privileges, but not full historical strength. She might have DD-standard Evade with BB-standard HP, and even privilege to strike at night (as she's the only CV ever to be coded as CV(N), night carrier), but won't be invincible.

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    • They need to add allied ship because more girls for us!

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    • Would be interesting to see the USS Iowa adaptation of a shipgirl. Maybe rivaling the Yamato. I would say the USS montana but she was never constructed due to demand of other ships during the war.

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    • ^^

      My post B4 i signed up. heh...

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    • 216.14.57.210 wrote:
      Would be interesting to see the USS Iowa adaptation of a shipgirl. Maybe rivaling the Yamato.

      @RaiserPhantom

      SenF4cx

      Iowa vs Yamato?


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    • well then...that is beautiful

      most of us already seen these ladies 

      http://www.japanator.com/celebrate-july-4th-with-some-us-navy-ship-girls--32797.phtml

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    • meanwhile on the World of Warships Forums, there are threads about Kantai Collection.

      Durring the closed beta Kongo was one of the most popular ships.  Say "poi" in chat in World of Warships and the Kancolle fans will sing you the song of their people.

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    • Bloodylord wrote:
      Just a Simple Merchant wrote:

      Any reason why?

      Simple. I don't want my girls to fight each other. I also don't want my girl to feel insecure when they sortie or even when they're in base. The shipgirls looses their past memories, but the memories are still there, they just can't remember exactly. Now putting Allied ships in my base, it's matter of time until they remember, it's not easy to forgive those who killed you and your comrades in the past. This applies to each and every shipgirl, no matter what side she belongs to. If they have to care too much about what if the one stand next to them shoot them like they did in the past, they'll not be able to fight Abyssal. Furthermore, they will not have happy time, and i don't like that.

      It's probably a bit late, but I would like to point out that a lot of ships sunk in WWII was because of eaither aerial attacks, sinking due to extensive daamage, then there's also ships that were scuttled to avoid capture.

      Really, the only ships that I know of that would have a grudge with an Allied ship, should they be in KanColle, would be Yuudachi and USS Sterett & Portland, Atago and USS Darter, and Maya and USS Dace. actually, if I remember correctly, Chokai was sunk by destroyer Fujinami when she went dead in the water, so that ought to make things tense between two ships of IJN.

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
       Chokai was sunk by destroyer Fujinami when she went dead in the water, so that ought to make things tense between two ships of IJN.

      Actually, scuttling was a legit tactic on WW2 to avoid enemy to get their hand on our ship. Even allied and axis did it. So no revenge whatsoever on Choukai case, since she was already a deadmeat after her torpedo armament blown off from USN escort carrier secondary gun shots.

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    • Admiral Mikan wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
       Chokai was sunk by destroyer Fujinami when she went dead in the water, so that ought to make things tense between two ships of IJN.
      Actually, scuttling was a legit tactic on WW2 to avoid enemy to get their hand on our ship. Even allied and axis did it. So no revenge whatsoever on Choukai case, since she was already a deadmeat after her torpedo armament blown off from USN escort carrier secondary gun shots.

      Just finished the anime. I guess that's what Akagi meant in her dream when she was asking to be scuttled. Poor Akagi...

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    • Not gonna lie, I would love to see some Allied ships. I definitly agree with the idea that Abyssals are ALL sunken ships, not just Allies. Not, I'm not saying add in the whole US fleet, but a few ships would be nice. That, and it would give the game's storyline a whole new spin. 

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    • I agree with the theory of Abyssals being ALL sunken ships, and not just based on Allied ships. I mean, come one, you gotta admit that it'd be interesting to go out with a fleet of the best ships of World War II not limited to the Axis powers. Just imagine it, Iowa and Yamato, two of the best battleships during their time, just tearing shit up. Besides, they put Italian ships in KanColle, most of us know how Italy was during the war, so why not throw in the Allied ships as well?

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    • Admiral Mikan wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
       Chokai was sunk by destroyer Fujinami when she went dead in the water, so that ought to make things tense between two ships of IJN.
      Actually, scuttling was a legit tactic on WW2 to avoid enemy to get their hand on our ship. Even allied and axis did it. So no revenge whatsoever on Choukai case, since she was already a deadmeat after her torpedo armament blown off from USN escort carrier secondary gun shots.

      If they added HMS Hood or HMS Ark Royal, though, that'd definitely make things awkward with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen.

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    • True, but they might also make a great team. Imagine the drama and the conversations that would ensue. If they could settle their differences, the four of them would be unstoppable. 

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      I agree with the theory of Abyssals being ALL sunken ships, and not just based on Allied ships. 

      It's not a theory, it's official setting.

      Hood and Ark Royal would get along with Bismarck and Eugen, just like those bunch of IJN cruisers getting along with Aoba, or destroyers getting along with Yukikaze and Inazuma.

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    • Hmm, Allied ships, huh? Any threads involving these tend to attract all sorts of debacles.

      Speaking of Allied ships, I'm pretty sure that there is a Chinese game somewhere that has both sides... that aside, I'm strongly against the USN ships appearing in Kantai Collection as the first few Allied ships in-game due to potential uproar it might incite (as if Abyssal stand-in for USN in anime wasn't enough already).

      However big and powerful the USN are, it's not like they're the only navy on the Allied side. Not to mention that there are Axis-side battleships from Mediterranean Sea to test out the waters with the RN battleships and such (such as Hood and Dunkerque-class).

      I'd say that the Queen Elizabeth-class battleships (which are Kongou's cousin ship class, and Warspite is quite famous herself) is the best starting point if the Allied side was to ever be introduced in Kancolle, then the Dunkerque-class, Hood, Nelson, Rodney before going to other USN ships. And these examples I had given are just the battleships, there are so many to choose form even before touching USN's.

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    • Vcharng wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      I agree with the theory of Abyssals being ALL sunken ships, and not just based on Allied ships. 
      It's not a theory, it's official setting.

      Well, that just made writing fanfiction so much better.

      Anyway, as powerful as US ships are, I have to agree with Ar-cen-ciel that there are other Allied ships out there. The UK was also a naval power in World War II, and there were also some poweful Dutch and Soviet ships in service as well. 

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    • What's your guys opinion on bringing the colorado class BBs to the kancolle world. I see a rivalry between Nagato, Mutsu, Colorado and Maryland. The  Big 7 ships gathered. 

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    • RaiserPhantom wrote:
      What's your guys opinion on bringing the colorado class BBs to the kancolle world. I see a rivalry between Nagato, Mutsu, Colorado and Maryland. The  Big 7 ships gathered. 

      Wow, I didn't expect this thread to go quite for awhile then resurface later.

      I certainly like the idea of having "inter-faction" rivalries, I think it certainly adds depth to character and lore and keeps a general light tone so long as it's playful. Truth be told, I was kinda egging for this when they intoduced Littorio and Roma a while back.

      Ar-cen-ciel has a point about the backlash that could be had though. The fan base as been...touchy about this topic as I'm sure some responces above have courteously pointed out.

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    • Just a Simple Merchant wrote:
      Ar-cen-ciel has a point about the backlash that could be had though. The fan base as been...touchy about this topic as I'm sure some responses above have courteously pointed out.
      Well, the USN ships wouldn't really much of a problem once the Japanese fanbase have gotten used to Allied kanmusus, so there's some hope for that one at least.

      Chinese ships on the other hand was a major mixed bag due to several reasons, among them is because China was basically split into two nations now, Yukikaze was given to Republic of China back when KMT was a faction in mainland China, so the chances for Yukikaze ever getting remodelled into Dan Yang in Kancolle are pretty much nil (not that it mattered since Yukikaze is a Shimakaze-tier destroyer in Kancolle to begin with).

      RaiserPhantom wrote:
      What's your guys opinion on bringing the colorado class BBs to the kancolle world. I see a rivalry between Nagato, Mutsu, Colorado and Maryland. The Big 7 ships gathered.
      Well, that's not a bad idea actually. In fact my wager is one of the first USN battleships in Kancolle are likely to be one of the Big 7.

      That being said, I think the foreign fanbases would egg up the demand for Iowa and Enterprise as soon as USN lineups appeared though... speaking of Iowa, she might be nerfed to the point where she has to be at Kai to really match up to Yamato in Kancolle, most of her FP comes from her powerful AP shell equip.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Just a Simple Merchant wrote:
      Ar-cen-ciel has a point about the backlash that could be had though. The fan base as been...touchy about this topic as I'm sure some responses above have courteously pointed out.
      Well, the USN ships wouldn't really much of a problem once the Japanese fanbase have gotten used to Allied kanmusus, so there's some hope for that one at least.

      Chinese ships on the other hand was a major mixed bag due to several reasons, among them is because China was basically split into two nations now, Yukikaze was given to Republic of China back when KMT was a faction in mainland China, so the chances for Yukikaze ever getting remodelled into Dan Yang in Kancolle are pretty much nil (not that it mattered since Yukikaze is a Shimakaze-tier destroyer in Kancolle to begin with).

      Interestingly, in Japanese doujins Yukikaze was usually described as "went to a southern island nation after the war ended", but back in 1945, the Chinese Nationalists still control the whole China. Dan Yang was sent to China, not Taiwan after the surrender of Japan, and she actually participated in the withdrawal of the Nationalists.

      Dan Yang herself won't be a problem to the Japanese, Japan and ROC actually had quite a good relationship over Dan Yang issues. A much bigger problem would be how to adapt the ROCN insignia. Soviet Navy had an independent flag, but ROCN flags are either the ROC national flag, or the Nationalists' party flag.

      Also, Yukikaze (IJN) is using blue and white as her main colors, since Dan Yang literally means "Red Sun" in Chinese, it is possible to have Dan Yang using red and white instead. But an IJN ship using blue while an ROCN ship using red? It's just very anti-intuitive.

      It needs to be reminded that Yukikaze's Chinese affiliation was officially admitted in a way, though. In the official 4-koma, when the folks first encountered Unryu, they thought that she was a Chinese, and one of them shouted "should we go and find Yukikaze?"

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    • Had something in mind by the way...

      I was thinking at first by the way of a loophole to include some Allied ships in the game. 

      In particular I was thinking of adding kanmusus from the Vichy French fleet - in the hopes of seeing the battleship Richelieu in action - since they had been an Axis ally up unril 1944.

      But thinking as well that since most of its ships are either scuttled or turned over to Allied control by 1942 their inclusion to KC seems to be far from possible, not to mention them having only a short proven "track record".

      On the other hand, as this is just my obervation and opinion, there are some other "ptential" (again, as this is only my observation) kanmusus from either the other Axis or neutral nations that can be included in the game.

      For eaxample:

      - Finland, an Axis power before 1944, had some fairly powerful coastal defense heavy cruisers such as the Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen with their arsenal of 10 inch guns.

      - Thailand, also an Axis ally (though only active in the early stages of the war) also have 2 coastal defence heavy cruisers of the Thonburi class: Sri Ayudhya and Thonburi - though I think Thonburi might have her luck nerfed just like Mutsu because she had been severly damaged when fighting the French in 1941.

      They even had the submarines Matchanu and Wirun - though their service record is really short.

      - Sweden, though a neutral country, also had coastal defence ships. These are the Gustav V, Sverige, and the Drottning Victoria - all of them sporting 11 inch guns.

      - Argentina, also a neutral country but leans mostly on the Axis side, has dreadnoughts: the Rivadavia and the Moreno.

      So these are my suggestions -although there might be some factors such as effectiveness in battle, service record, and generally what most players would think about adding adding another battleship/cruiser/etc. in KC might be considered.  

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    • 112.211.184.57 wrote:
      Had something in mind by the way...

      I was thinking at first by the way of a loophole to include some Allied ships in the game. 

      In particular I was thinking of adding kanmusus from the Vichy French fleet - in the hopes of seeing the battleship Richelieu in action - since they had been an Axis ally up unril 1944.

      But thinking as well that since most of its ships are either scuttled or turned over to Allied control by 1942 their inclusion to KC seems to be far from possible, not to mention them having only a short proven "track record".


      Littorio was turned over to Allied forces as well, and renamed as Italia.

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    • Vcharng wrote:
      112.211.184.57 wrote:
      Had something in mind by the way...

      I was thinking at first by the way of a loophole to include some Allied ships in the game. 

      In particular I was thinking of adding kanmusus from the Vichy French fleet - in the hopes of seeing the battleship Richelieu in action - since they had been an Axis ally up unril 1944.

      But thinking as well that since most of its ships are either scuttled or turned over to Allied control by 1942 their inclusion to KC seems to be far from possible, not to mention them having only a short proven "track record".


      Littorio was turned over to Allied forces as well, and renamed as Italia.

      Hmmm... I honestly missed that part.

      Still I think it will be up for the devs or a great majority of players to decide whether they will agree about the possiblity of including some ships from a few notable, but vaguely known, WW2 Axis allies aside from the "mainstay" line up of Italy-Germany-Japan and from some of the neutral nations.

      This is, again, my opinion, as there might also be some factors such as referencing from their real-life historical exploits and "service record" (Roma might be an example of this), effectiveness when used, and maybe some "aesthetic" considerations as well...

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    • That being said, I think the foreign fanbases would egg up the demand for Iowa and Enterprise as soon as USN lineups appeared though... speaking of Iowa, she might be nerfed to the point where she has to be at Kai to really match up to Yamato in Kancolle, most of her FP comes from her powerful AP shell equip.

      Technically speaking, though, in terms of armament, the Iowa class were still inferior to theYamato class. IJN aimed for quality over quantity when it came to competing with USN. Yamato had better guns and aromor, if I remember correctly, but Iowa was more maneuverable, and a bit more expense could be spared owing to the production capabilities of the US back then. It's a close battle, but Yamato still remains on top. If the US had actually completed the Montana class, however, I'm not so sure.

      Anyway, US ships aren't the only ships out there. The UK was a pioneer when it came to the development of battleships. For example: HMS Dreadnought.

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Speaking of Iowa, she might be nerfed to the point where she has to be at Kai to really match up to Yamato in Kancolle, most of her FP comes from her powerful AP shell equip.
      Technically speaking, though, in terms of armament, the Iowa class were still inferior to the Yamato class. IJN aimed for quality over quantity when it came to competing with USN. Yamato had better guns and armor, if I remember correctly, but Iowa was more maneuverable, and a bit more expense could be spared owing to the production capabilities of the US back then. It's a close battle, but Yamato still remains on top. If the US had actually completed the Montana class, however, I'm not so sure.
      Actually Iowa did have a better fire control system developed for them which IJN lacked, and that's before mentioning their firepower and armor, depending on your sources, some would even go as far to claim that Iowa wouldn't lose to Yamato in terms of effective firepower and armor. The Montana is basically a heavier Iowa with four 16-inch turrets instead of three.

      Needless to say, that fire control system I mentioned are likely to be nerfed into AAFDs and given to Fletcher or Gearing-class, if they're to ever to be introduced.

      Advancer231 wrote:
      Anyway, US ships aren't the only ships out there. The UK was a pioneer when it came to the development of battleships. For example: HMS Dreadnought.
      Well, I've been trying to advocate the Royal Navy from the beginning. As for HMS Dreadnought, she's a decade older than Kongou, and quite a number of bigger battleships has been built in her design since then, so I'd wager that her as a shipgirl would be portrayed as a fearless fool of sorts. Then again, her name means "fears nothing", so...
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    • Its good talking about the loadouts of the ships (iowa, dreadnought, possible montana) since thats how they are going to be potrayed in the game, if they ever come out. But lets not get carried away with debates on who is the better ship. Both Iowa and Yamato are beautiful and spectacular ships and excel where they excel at best. So again, lets no go down the path of meaningless debates that will cause unrest in the kancolle community
      SenF4cx

      Lets put differences aside and work together to take down the abyssal threat.

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    • On a related note, will we ever get Verniy's actual historical armament, namely the B2-LM twin 130's?


      I also know of a pair of destroyers that Ikazuchi and Inazuma would love to meet......the Grom-class destroyers Grom and Błyskawica.

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    • HashiriyaR32 wrote:
      I also know of a pair of destroyers that Ikazuchi and Inazuma would love to meet......the Grom-class destroyers Grom and Błyskawica.
      What about Gremyashchiy?
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    • Just imagine all that thunder and lightning in one place.

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    • Anyway, let's see where the devs take it. I'm still trying to set up a proxy to play the game, but I've done some research. 

      You gotta admit, though, it'd be cool to tear ship up with a sortie of the world's most powerful warships.

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    • Yes, I suppose all we can do is wait, and check out fan artwork ^.^ Though I hope the devs hurry with adding new things. There's only so many expeditions I can send my girls on before they begin to get bored. 

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    • I dislike the idea. My reasons might seem a little shallow to most, but I'm fussy about these things. But, knowing this place, I'd rather not say.

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    • Everlastingrose67 wrote:
      I dislike the idea. My reasons might seem a little shallow to most, but I'm fussy about these things. But, knowing this place, I'd rather not say.

      We all have our own opinions here, and if anyone gives you shit for that, then report them. There's a reason this thread has "Any thoughts" in its name.

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    • I'd much like to see the HMS Prince of Wales make her way into the game. She could serve as a specialized anti-air vessel, with her network of radar and HACS, and mirroring her last stand against airstrikes.

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    • Bloodylord wrote:
      Just a Simple Merchant wrote:

      Any reason why?

      Simple. I don't want my girls to fight each other. I also don't want my girl to feel insecure when they sortie or even when they're in base. The shipgirls looses their past memories, but the memories are still there, they just can't remember exactly. Now putting Allied ships in my base, it's matter of time until they remember, it's not easy to forgive those who killed you and your comrades in the past. This applies to each and every shipgirl, no matter what side she belongs to. If they have to care too much about what if the one stand next to them shoot them like they did in the past, they'll not be able to fight Abyssal. Furthermore, they will not have happy time, and i don't like that.


      I quote this, because it took most of the words out of my mouth, anyway. And while I am grateful to the Allies in WW2 in defeating Japan since they did free the Philippines too, (yes, I live here, and if it weren't for the US, who knows what would happen?) I feel that bringing them into the game would suddenly be a little game-breaking. Sure, you could say there'll be nerfs and whatnot, but then it would seem like the Allies /need/ to be nerfed because the IJN ships couldn't match up to them, and that would grind some gears, I imagine.


      Plus, I could site some interactions would should probably be tension-filled. I could elaborate, but as I've just woken up, I might be a little redundant, and my thoughts are still scattered all over the place.

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    • Everlastingrose67 wrote:
      Bloodylord wrote:
      Just a Simple Merchant wrote:

      Any reason why?

      Simple. I don't want my girls to fight each other. I also don't want my girl to feel insecure when they sortie or even when they're in base. The shipgirls looses their past memories, but the memories are still there, they just can't remember exactly. Now putting Allied ships in my base, it's matter of time until they remember, it's not easy to forgive those who killed you and your comrades in the past. This applies to each and every shipgirl, no matter what side she belongs to. If they have to care too much about what if the one stand next to them shoot them like they did in the past, they'll not be able to fight Abyssal. Furthermore, they will not have happy time, and i don't like that.

      I quote this, because it took most of the words out of my mouth, anyway. And while I am grateful to the Allies in WW2 in defeating Japan since they did free the Philippines too, (yes, I live here, and if it weren't for the US, who knows what would happen?) I feel that bringing them into the game would suddenly be a little game-breaking. Sure, you could say there'll be nerfs and whatnot, but then it would seem like the Allies /need/ to be nerfed because the IJN ships couldn't match up to them, and that would grind some gears, I imagine.


      Plus, I could site some interactions would should probably be tension-filled. I could elaborate, but as I've just woken up, I might be a little redundant, and my thoughts are still scattered all over the place.

      Hello fellow Filipino.

      Just like to point out that it wasn't that all Japan's ships couldn't match up (although some of them really did need some work done, and others were just obsolete). If I remember correctly and please correct me if I'm wrong, one of the major problems faced by Japan was the severe lack of resources since their supply routes got disrupted, and a few other factors, not to mention Japan was, at the time, a nation with limited resources going up against most of the numerically superior US navy, plus a few other navies (I think Australia also participated in the Pacific theatre?). Anyway, Please also remember that the Allied naval powers was not limited to the US. There's also the UK, a few Dutch ships, Australia, and if I recall, the Soviets also had their share of warships.

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    • Also, there's a saying.

      "The enemy of my enemy is  my friend."

      I'm prety sure that regardless if their affiliation is Allied or Axis, none of the ships want to be sunk by Abyssals.

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    • Advancer231 wrote:

      Also, there's a saying.

      "The enemy of my enemy is  my friend."

      I'm prety sure that regardless if their affiliation is Allied or Axis, none of the ships want to be sunk by Abyssals.
      I dunno about that... maybe we'll end up in a melee-a-trois against the Allied...
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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      Also, there's a saying.

      "The enemy of my enemy is  my friend."

      I'm prety sure that regardless if their affiliation is Allied or Axis, none of the ships want to be sunk by Abyssals.
      I dunno about that... maybe we'll end up in a melee-a-trois against the Allied...

      That's what people said about the world today, and now everybody's fretting together over ISIS.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      Also, there's a saying.

      "The enemy of my enemy is  my friend."

      I'm prety sure that regardless if their affiliation is Allied or Axis, none of the ships want to be sunk by Abyssals.
      I dunno about that... maybe we'll end up in a melee-a-trois against the Allied...

      This, despite my worry over how non-japanese fans would react, actually sounds kind of fun. Imagine having triple battles or a "race" to victory.

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    • 142.157.194.17 wrote:
      I'd much like to see the HMS Prince of Wales make her way into the game. She could serve as a specialized anti-air vessel, with her network of radar and HACS, and mirroring her last stand against airstrikes.

      if the Prince of Wales added into this game, it would be "dedicated anti-aircraft battleship", sam case as Maya in her role as dedicated anti-aircraft cruiser..

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    • Personally, I'd like to see USS Arizona (Rivalry with Akagi or Kaga?) or HMS Hood.(Rivalry with Bismarck or Prinz Eugen?)

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Also, there's a saying.

      "The enemy of my enemy is  my friend."

      I'm prety sure that regardless if their affiliation is Allied or Axis, none of the ships want to be sunk by Abyssals.

      Personally, the idea of them fighting the Abyssals in their home waters is fine. I just feel that it'd be better if they fought under their own banner. I mean, sure, we have some Germans and Italians, but that's more due to being allies back then, etc, but I'm getting the feeling that there'll be animosity between previous enemies.


      I wouldn't want my girls feeling uncomfortable. There's a chance that if, say, Kaga and Enterprise would sortie together, Kaga would want to trounce Enterprise in terms of kills, causing her to be more reckless. There are a lot of scenarios which could go wrong. Heck, put me in a team with a person who I've had a history of bad blood with, I'd be uncomfortable. Even if we were fighting against a common enemy, I still wouldn't like the said person, and I'm sure some of the Japanese kanmusu would feel that as well.

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    • Everlastingrose67 wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      Also, there's a saying.

      "The enemy of my enemy is  my friend."

      I'm prety sure that regardless if their affiliation is Allied or Axis, none of the ships want to be sunk by Abyssals.

      Personally, the idea of them fighting the Abyssals in their home waters is fine. I just feel that it'd be better if they fought under their own banner. I mean, sure, we have some Germans and Italians, but that's more due to being allies back then, etc, but I'm getting the feeling that there'll be animosity between previous enemies.


      I wouldn't want my girls feeling uncomfortable. There's a chance that if, say, Kaga and Enterprise would sortie together, Kaga would want to trounce Enterprise in terms of kills, causing her to be more reckless. There are a lot of scenarios which could go wrong. Heck, put me in a team with a person who I've had a history of bad blood with, I'd be uncomfortable. Even if we were fighting against a common enemy, I still wouldn't like the said person, and I'm sure some of the Japanese kanmusu would feel that as well.

      Wouldn't it be just that? Competition? I may sound cruel for saying this, a bad workman blames his tools when he, and not they, are at fault, and, let's face it, before they reincarnated as girls in awesome outfits with usable naval guns attached to them and an unique, lovable personalities, the original steam and steel warships were just tools. Powerful tools, in the case of Yamato, Hood, Bismarck and the Iowa's, but tools,nontheless.

      A lot of warships sunk during WWII were actually victims of aerial attacks from the carriers, or they were so damaged that their allies had to sink them later. Well, granted, if USS Portland was added, I'm pretty sure that there will be way more than bad blood between them...

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    • Actually, maybe that can be a thing, choosing which faction you want you kanmusu to come from? Axis or Allies.

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Everlastingrose67 wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      Also, there's a saying.

      "The enemy of my enemy is  my friend."

      I'm prety sure that regardless if their affiliation is Allied or Axis, none of the ships want to be sunk by Abyssals.

      Personally, the idea of them fighting the Abyssals in their home waters is fine. I just feel that it'd be better if they fought under their own banner. I mean, sure, we have some Germans and Italians, but that's more due to being allies back then, etc, but I'm getting the feeling that there'll be animosity between previous enemies.


      I wouldn't want my girls feeling uncomfortable. There's a chance that if, say, Kaga and Enterprise would sortie together, Kaga would want to trounce Enterprise in terms of kills, causing her to be more reckless. There are a lot of scenarios which could go wrong. Heck, put me in a team with a person who I've had a history of bad blood with, I'd be uncomfortable. Even if we were fighting against a common enemy, I still wouldn't like the said person, and I'm sure some of the Japanese kanmusu would feel that as well.

      Wouldn't it be just that? Competition? I may sound cruel for saying this, a bad workman blames his tools when he, and not they, are at fault, and, let's face it, before they reincarnated as girls in awesome outfits with usable naval guns attached to them and an unique, lovable personalities, the original steam and steel warships were just tools. Powerful tools, in the case of Yamato, Hood, Bismarck and the Iowa's, but tools,nontheless.

      A lot of warships sunk during WWII were actually victims of aerial attacks from the carriers, or they were so damaged that their allies had to sink them later. Well, granted, if USS Portland was added, I'm pretty sure that there will be way more than bad blood between them...


      Competition could be. But knowing Kaga's pride, I'm not surprised if she wants to win in that regard, even if they aren't enemies anymore. 


      And frankly, I'm sure they have some vague recollections of their past lives. Vague, sure. But some of them may remember the ones who defeated them. As the saying goes "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." 


      I may be judging too early, and I hope it doesn't cause offense, but it seems to me that you're one of those persons who think of persons/things as a "means to and end" sort. And that's where we differ. And it's pretty much why I dislike the idea. If they help, sure. But, I can't say I'd welcome them with open arms into my fleet.

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    • Everlastingrose67 wrote:

      I wouldn't want my girls feeling uncomfortable. There's a chance that if, say, Kaga and Enterprise would sortie together, Kaga would want to trounce Enterprise in terms of kills, causing her to be more reckless. There are a lot of scenarios which could go wrong. Heck, put me in a team with a person who I've had a history of bad blood with, I'd be uncomfortable. Even if we were fighting against a common enemy, I still wouldn't like the said person, and I'm sure some of the Japanese kanmusu would feel that as well.

      If those Japanese ship girls can accept a "fucking American/British" (鬼畜米英 in Japanese wartime propaganda terms) as their commander, I see no problem here. I belive many of our fellow TTKs are from these two countries. 

      Fighting shoulder to shoulder with one of your former enemies shouldn't be anywhere harder than being under the command of another one, right?

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    • Everlastingrose67 wrote:

      I may be judging too early, and I hope it doesn't cause offense, but it seems to me that you're one of those persons who think of persons/things as a "means to and end" sort. And that's where we differ. And it's pretty much why I dislike the idea. If they help, sure. But, I can't say I'd welcome them with open arms into my fleet.

      There's a difference between a person who is knowledgable on the different philosophies of the world, and those who live those philosophies. You were judging too early, and I would obviously be offended because you, sir, are not only accusing me of being something I know I'm not, but because you assumed you knew enough about me from one comment to come up with such a conclusion about me. Please consider how much you know about a person before you announce your conclusion about their character, especially since this is the internet, where people are not always what the seem.

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Everlastingrose67 wrote:

      I may be judging too early, and I hope it doesn't cause offense, but it seems to me that you're one of those persons who think of persons/things as a "means to and end" sort. And that's where we differ. And it's pretty much why I dislike the idea. If they help, sure. But, I can't say I'd welcome them with open arms into my fleet.

      There's a difference between a person who is knowledgable on the different philosophies of the world, and those who live those philosophies. You were judging too early, and I would obviously be offended because you, sir, are not only accusing me of being something I know I'm not, but because you assumed you knew enough about me from one comment to come up with such a conclusion about me. Please consider how much you know about a person before you announce your conclusion about their character, especially since this is the internet, where people are not always what the seem.

      Then perhaps we both should've phrased our wordings better. The way I understood it was that. If you take offense at that, I apologize. But it's what I got from what you've said. Again, my apologies.

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    • Vcharng wrote:
      Everlastingrose67 wrote:

      I wouldn't want my girls feeling uncomfortable. There's a chance that if, say, Kaga and Enterprise would sortie together, Kaga would want to trounce Enterprise in terms of kills, causing her to be more reckless. There are a lot of scenarios which could go wrong. Heck, put me in a team with a person who I've had a history of bad blood with, I'd be uncomfortable. Even if we were fighting against a common enemy, I still wouldn't like the said person, and I'm sure some of the Japanese kanmusu would feel that as well.

      If those Japanese ship girls can accept a "fucking American/British" (鬼畜米英 in Japanese wartime propaganda terms) as their commander, I see no problem here. I belive many of our fellow TTKs are from these two countries. 

      Fighting shoulder to shoulder with one of your former enemies shouldn't be anywhere harder than being under the command of another one, right?


      Sigh. Shall we squabble over technicalities, now?

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    • More importantly, I've said my piece. I'm opting to out of this conversation before I end up offending people again. Which isn't my intention, nor do I like it. If anyone wants to continue talking to me about it, well, yeah. It'd be in a different thread, or something. Maybe message wall? Idk.

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      If those Japanese ship girls can accept a "fucking American/British" (鬼畜米英 in Japanese wartime propaganda terms) as their commander, I see no problem here. I belive many of our fellow TTKs are from these two countries. 

      Fighting shoulder to shoulder with one of your former enemies shouldn't be anywhere harder than being under the command of another one, right?

      As entertaining as this idea is, I personally wouldn't suggest using it as an excuse to segway Allied ships in. Many of the Kancolle fanbase already don't like the foreigners for even bringing up the topic let alone use it to justify adding certain ships into the game.

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    • Just a Simple Merchant wrote:

      Many of the Kancolle fanbase already don't like the foreigners for even bringing up the topic let alone use it to justify adding certain ships into the game.

      Where? Definitely not in Japan though. In wikiwiki the Japs are talking about British carriers and foreign TTKs like nothing special already. They also mentioned something I kept emphasizing: If they refuse to introduce Allied ships, there are only Shinano + 3 European Battleships left for any future large ship introductions. This is not a good way to lengthen the lifespan of the game.

      In fact there are even, in Japan, criticism about KC questioning whether its a right-wing game or not, for it seems to promote the Axis side of WWII.

      I didn't use anything as an excuse, those are solid reasons.

      Oh, and did I forget to mention that our IJN ship girls already accepted another enemy of theirs? They accepted Akitsu Maru and Maruyu, from IJA. Check the history and see just how hostile the relationship between IJA and IJN was.

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      Just a Simple Merchant wrote:

      Many of the Kancolle fanbase already don't like the foreigners for even bringing up the topic let alone use it to justify adding certain ships into the game.

      Where? Definitely not in Japan though. In wikiwiki the Japs are talking about British carriers and foreign TTKs like nothing special already. They also mentioned something I kept emphasizing: If they refuse to introduce Allied ships, there are only Shinano + 3 European Battleships left for any future large ship introductions. This is not a good way to lengthen the lifespan of the game.

      In fact there are even, in Japan, criticism about KC questioning whether its a right-wing game or not, for it seems to promote the Axis side of WWII.

      I didn't use anything as an excuse, those are solid reasons.

      Oh, and did I forget to mention that our IJN ship girls already accepted another enemy of theirs? They accepted Akitsu Maru and Maruyu, from IJA. Check the history and see just how hostile the relationship between IJA and IJN was.

      Sources, pls.
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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:

      Vcharng wrote:


      Just a Simple Merchant wrote:

      Many of the Kancolle fanbase already don't like the foreigners for even bringing up the topic let alone use it to justify adding certain ships into the game.

      Where? Definitely not in Japan though. In wikiwiki the Japs are talking about British carriers and foreign TTKs like nothing special already. They also mentioned something I kept emphasizing: If they refuse to introduce Allied ships, there are only Shinano + 3 European Battleships left for any future large ship introductions. This is not a good way to lengthen the lifespan of the game.

      In fact there are even, in Japan, criticism about KC questioning whether its a right-wing game or not, for it seems to promote the Axis side of WWII.

      I didn't use anything as an excuse, those are solid reasons.

      Oh, and did I forget to mention that our IJN ship girls already accepted another enemy of theirs? They accepted Akitsu Maru and Maruyu, from IJA. Check the history and see just how hostile the relationship between IJA and IJN was.

      Sources, pls.

      http://wikiwiki.jp/kancolle/?Graf%20Zeppelin%B2%FE%2F%A5%B3%A5%E1%A5%F3%A5%C81

      なんでもかんでも装甲化すりゃいいってもんじゃない -- 2015-11-19 (木) 17:31:00 New (anyways, wouldn't it be good if she got remodeled into an Armored carrier?)

      • 英艦がくれば装甲空母祭りだ 頑張れ -- 2015-11-19 (木) 17:31:26 New (When the British ships comes, it will be a festival of armored carriers, just hang on until then.)
      • なんでもかんでも装甲化すりゃ~ お前大戦時のロイヤルネイビーにも同じこと言えんの? -- 2015-11-19 (木) 18:25:38 New (did you said the same to the Royal Navy during the war?)
      • 流石のロイヤルネイビーも普通の空母の装甲化はしてないがな -- 2015-11-20 (金) 03:21:42 New (Even the famous Royal Navy never converted a normal carrier into an armored one, though)

      The "far-right" accusation is a common criticism against KC in/near Japan, it is possible to be found nearly anywhere. Last time I saw one, it was on 艦これ速報. I even have the impression that some politicians used KC to accuse of far-right propaganda for Japanese youth back in 2013, but I can't find the link now, as two years have passed.

      Also:

      http://wikiwiki.jp/kancolle/?Graf%20Zeppelin%2F%A5%B3%A5%E1%A5%F3%A5%C81

      未完成艦が来るとはね、この流れだとおなじ未完成の伊吹やアクイラなんかもいずれ来るんだろう、この分だと連合国側は実装しないんだろうか・・・。 -- 2015-11-18 (水) 23:21:22 (They are even introducing uncompleted ships, so I think Ibuki and Aquila would come as well, in exchange there will probably be no Allied ships)

      • PTなんて完全に「アメリカ軍でしか使っていない略称」をとうとう深海側につけちゃったしね。 -- 2015-11-18 (水) 23:31:18 (Well, the term PT was used only by the USN, so the allied are getting even more Abyssal)
      • そりゃお前、残ってる大型艦が日本はもう信濃、伊吹だけ、駆逐潜水以外ですら商船改装空母5隻と日進、香取くらいしかいないし枢軸も戦艦クラスは3隻(+リシュリュー)だろうし、秋イベ始まったばかりでなんだけど冬イベにこん中から出るとしても多くて2隻、そうなると連合艦出すとすれば早くても来年春以降、3周年だし運営的にはそれで延命図るんじゃないの? -- 2015-11-18 (水) 23:47:26 (But all the large ships left for IJN are Shinano and Ibuki*1, and all the non-DD-or-SS are the five CVEs and Hissin and the like. The whole axis side only has three BBs*2 left, plus Lichelieu. Even if we start introducing them now, we can't move on to Allied ships until next spring event ends. The game will have passed its 3rd anniversary by then, wouldn't the devs use this*3 as a life-expander?)

      *1 He forgot about Kii and Owari (Super-Yamato-class) here. Ibuki is a light carrier, so it's not really a large ship in the devs' definition.

      *2 I think that  calculation came from  Tirpitz+Scharnhorst+Gneisenau, but in reality there are also Andrea Doria class (2 ships) and the rest of the V.Venetto class. Still, according to current KC policy about foreign ships, Tirpitz and Gneisenau are most likely out of the game, and so is Caio Duilio (Andrea Doria-class #2), if not the whole AD class. The rest of the V.Venetto class, according to how Roma and Littorio are introduced, are also out of the game. Even if we give a go to the H-class, that would only be Scharnhorst + AD + Lichelieu + H-39x2+ Aquila. That would, at most, last for an year, what about next? And remember, the only combat-capable (as in not having CVL capacities with BB displacements) standard carrier in this list is Shinano (with hypothetical remodel), that means only one (real) carrier left.

      *3 This= Allied ships.

      From these comments you can see that the Japs are not against Allied ships at all. In case if you don't know, they also broadly accept the thought that some Abyssals are Japanese ships.

      Here's a list of Abyssals thought to be Japanese ships by the Japanese afaik:

      AA hime (Teruzuki)

      Anchorage Water Demon (Ki-77 #2, which went MIA over Indian Ocean)</span>

      CV hime (Kaga)

      CL hime (Jintsu)

      CL demon (Naka)

      DD hime (Harusame)

      Finally, do I need to remind everyone that Tanaka did state that he is planning to introduce Allied ships? And that Abyssals = Axis and Allied sunken ships is the official setting?

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    • @Vcharng
      That's nice to know. That being said, what are the chances of Queen Elizabeth-class battleships sailing into Kancolle then?

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      Finally, do I need to remind everyone that Tanaka did state that he is planning to introduce Allied ships?

      I don't know why that is still being used, maybe because it's the only solace that pro-muricans can cling on to. It was a quote from a 2013 interview. It's almost 2016 already

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    • 202.166.14.133 wrote:
      It was a quote from a 2013 interview. It's almost 2016 already
      inb4 Matsu-class would appear for the Spring 2016 Event before any of the Allied ships. (probably on Fall 2016 Event)
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    • 202.166.14.133 wrote:

      Vcharng wrote:

      Finally, do I need to remind everyone that Tanaka did state that he is planning to introduce Allied ships?

      I don't know why that is still being used, maybe because it's the only solace that pro-muricans can cling on to. It was a quote from a 2013 interview. It's almost 2016 already

      Because it is the only official announcement so far about this issue.

      Less than half year after the interview, ABDA fleet appeared in Spring 2014 event, which marked the beginning of a series of actions that made Abyssals look even more like Allied ships. But is it really reasonable to assume that the devs changed their minds in such a short time, without having further evidences? I don't think so.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      @Vcharng
      That's nice to know. That being said, what are the chances of Queen Elizabeth-class battleships sailing into Kancolle then?

      Ask your self: If you are to choose a number (<10) of ships to represent the Royal Navy, who will you choose?

      From the size of the RN fleet, around two of them will be destroyers, that leaves us with eight vacancies left. And we probably would have three carriers, like Illustrious, Courageous and Ark Royal. Now, the rest five vacancies would have to include heavy and light cruisers, but just assume that you can choose five BBs for the RN, who would you choose? Hood and Nelson are historically important, while Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk by the Japanese. It will be not until all these are introduced that we can think about QE.

      My conclusion is that since QE will have quite a low priority, she will most likely have to stay in fan fictions.

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    • I can see some of the IJN shipgirls being uneasy with the USN Shipgirls. I mean cmon, imagine if the USS washington (N.Carolina class BB) has an unexpected run with kirishima? I don't suppose "forgive and forget" is in order between allied shipgirls and axis shipgirls?

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    • RaiserPhantom wrote:
      I can see some of the IJN shipgirls being uneasy with the USN Shipgirls. I mean cmon, imagine if the USS washington (N.Carolina class BB) has an unexpected run with kirishima? I don't suppose "forgive and forget" is in order between allied shipgirls and axis shipgirls?

      You can think about how Mogami got along with Mikuma and Nachi (both collided with her), or how Aoba got along with the whole lot other cruisers (there is a "Aoba's victims' group" cosisting of around 8~12 ships in Japanese fan fiction, either they were pushed into their death by Aoba, or Aoba failed to come to their rescue).

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    • Vcharng wrote:
      RaiserPhantom wrote:
      I can see some of the IJN shipgirls being uneasy with the USN Shipgirls. I mean cmon, imagine if the USS washington (N.Carolina class BB) has an unexpected run with kirishima? I don't suppose "forgive and forget" is in order between allied shipgirls and axis shipgirls?
      You can think about how Mogami got along with Mikuma and Nachi (both collided with her), or how Aoba got along with the whole lot other cruisers (there is a "Aoba's victims' group" cosisting of around 8~12 ships in Japanese fan fiction, either they were pushed into their death by Aoba, or Aoba failed to come to their rescue).
      That's mainly because they've basically forgotten half of their service records in selective obliviousness. Nagato and Prinz Eugen had forgotten about Operation Crossroad, while Samidare had forgotten what happened to Hiei back in Ironbottom Sound. Akagi and Kawakaze on the other hand remembers their last moments as they're sunk by enemy action.

      Meaning they can get along fine with their fellow shipgirls in the same navy, but with their former enemies, not so much. They'll end up in a teeth-clenched teamwork at best and become an enemy faction that joins up with the Abyssals against us (just like Maya and Kongou from the Fleet of Fog) at worst.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Vcharng wrote:
      RaiserPhantom wrote:
      I can see some of the IJN shipgirls being uneasy with the USN Shipgirls. I mean cmon, imagine if the USS washington (N.Carolina class BB) has an unexpected run with kirishima? I don't suppose "forgive and forget" is in order between allied shipgirls and axis shipgirls?
      You can think about how Mogami got along with Mikuma and Nachi (both collided with her), or how Aoba got along with the whole lot other cruisers (there is a "Aoba's victims' group" cosisting of around 8~12 ships in Japanese fan fiction, either they were pushed into their death by Aoba, or Aoba failed to come to their rescue).
      That's mainly because they've basically forgotten half of their service records in selective obliviousness. Nagato and Prinz Eugen had forgotten about Operation Crossroad, while Samidare had forgotten what happened to Hiei back in Ironbottom Sound. Akagi and Kawakaze on the other hand remembers their last moments as they're sunk by enemy action.

      Meaning they can get along fine with their fellow shipgirls in the same navy, but with their former enemies, not so much. They'll end up in a teeth-clenched teamwork at best and become an enemy faction that joins up with the Abyssals against us (just like Maya and Kongou from the Fleet of Fog) at worst.

      Well then, they can have selecive obliviousness upon who sunk them as well.

      For instance, Hyuuga has no problem talking about VLS and SH-60K, even though they do come from her former enemy.

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    • I've seen a few fics with USN ships in the character list, and I've seen only few within that few that have a good paranoia-based relationship (at worst) with ships from the IJN. One has to remember that KanColle takes place some time after WWII, and in the middle of that, the US and Japan became allies.

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    • Remember, Yukikaze lived well into the seventies, and I think the US and Japan were already allies by then. Same thing with a few other US ships. Even if they aren't around anymore, a few ships lived long enough to see the US and Japan become Allies before being sent to the Breakers. Let's not forget the museum ships.

      And then there's Operation Crossroads, where ships from both sides of the war were placed on the chopping board. Arkansas and Pennsylvania, for example. They were sunk during/after O.C. like Nagato and Prinz Eugen.  

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Remember, Yukikaze lived well into the seventies, 

      Actully she was damaged beyond repairs in a typhoon in 1969, under the name of ROCS Tan Yang.

      Among the ships already introduced, she is currently the last ship to be dismantled or sunk historically.

      Remember also that KC's Hyuuga knows about the modern JS Hyuuga, and that KC introduced a new furniture about the latest JS Kaga, KC is actually based on the world NOW, not WWII.

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    • Right. She was sold to Taiwan...

      I actually did not know that. About Hyuuga knowing about the new Hyuuga.

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    • Jack Vexx
      Jack Vexx removed this reply because:
      Fugged up quote.
      19:02, December 26, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • 24.10.135.95 wrote:


      Well what about the Allies? And the US? you may ask. They beat the Japanese fleet historically, so they shouldnt have trouble cleaning out the Abyssals that represent the Japanese navy, and cleaning out the Pacific Theater right? Well you are... Technically... the US did beat the Japanese, but not because the Japanese used thier planned strategy, because according to Japanese strategy, for those of you who remained awake in history class, the plan was NOT to stop at Pearl Harbor. The plan was to continue on to the California coast line and take out the then much smaller US navy, becuae (also mentioned in history class) the US production machine did not kick up UNTIL the US offically entered WWII. Before that the US was in the Depression, factories wheren't activly producing ships. The entire reason the US overproduced ships like that was to replace all the ships lost at Pearl Harbor, and then to have enough ships to fight back the Japanese, had Admiral Yamoto (the Admiral in charge of the Pearl Harbor attacks) moved on, instead of deciding to pull back to resupply his fleet, the war in the Pacific could have gone on ALOT longer.


      Source please? Nothing I've read on WW2 says that Japan planned to take the war to the US mainland.

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    • Jack Vexx wrote:

      24.10.135.95 wrote:


      Well what about the Allies? And the US? you may ask. They beat the Japanese fleet historically, so they shouldnt have trouble cleaning out the Abyssals that represent the Japanese navy, and cleaning out the Pacific Theater right? Well you are... Technically... the US did beat the Japanese, but not because the Japanese used thier planned strategy, because according to Japanese strategy, for those of you who remained awake in history class, the plan was NOT to stop at Pearl Harbor. The plan was to continue on to the California coast line and take out the then much smaller US navy, becuae (also mentioned in history class) the US production machine did not kick up UNTIL the US offically entered WWII. Before that the US was in the Depression, factories wheren't activly producing ships. The entire reason the US overproduced ships like that was to replace all the ships lost at Pearl Harbor, and then to have enough ships to fight back the Japanese, had Admiral Yamoto (the Admiral in charge of the Pearl Harbor attacks) moved on, instead of deciding to pull back to resupply his fleet, the war in the Pacific could have gone on ALOT longer.


      Source please? Nothing I've read on WW2 says that Japan planned to take the war to the US mainland.

      That was not an official plan of the IJN/IJA, instead it was an argument filed by the admirals who were against becoming allies with Germany and Italy. He even spelled Admiral Yamamoto (not Yamoto) wrong.

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    • I believe what IJN planned were kantai kessen and the 9-stage 潮減戦法 tactic?

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    • Qunow wrote:
      I believe what IJN planned were kantai kessen and the 9-stage 潮減戦法 tactic?

      漸減邀擊作戰。

      That was IJN's prime doctrine, in response of the American's War Plan Orange, and was opposed by a newer generation of admirals like Yamamoto Isoroku and Inoue Narumi, who saw potentials on naval aviation.

      Basicly it's:

      1. suppress enemy by subs

      2. suppress by carriers, repeat 1 and 2 a few times.

      3. Night battle by cruisers on the night right before Kantai Kessen (Decisive Fleet battle)

      4. suppress again by carriers on the morning of Kantai Kessen

      5. Kantai Kessen by battleships.

      But after Pearl Harbor, the Americans discarded War Plan Orange, so the 9-stage doctrine was pretty much useless.

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    • while that's pretty much uselees after USA changed their plan, wasn't the plan still remain in place and being followed for quite a while even after the war start according to what I read?

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    • Qunow wrote:
      while that's pretty much useless after USA changed their plan, wasn't the plan still remain in place and being followed for quite a while even after the war start according to what I read?
      Well, the Japanese still follow the doctrine for quite some time, up until their devastating loss in the battle of Midway. The Americans on the other hands no longer have the slow battleships (temporarily) for their entry to the Pacific Theater, so they have to improvise their plan with the Yorktown-class carriers (including the well-famed Enterprise) after their first-hand experience of Pearl Harbor.

      That being said, I thought we were discussing about Allied ships here... looks like it's easy to go off topic here it seems.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Qunow wrote:
      while that's pretty much useless after USA changed their plan, wasn't the plan still remain in place and being followed for quite a while even after the war start according to what I read?
      Well, the Japanese still follow the doctrine for quite some time, up until their devastating loss in the battle of Midway. The Americans on the other hands no longer have the slow battleships (temporarily) for their entry to the Pacific Theater, so they have to improvise their plan with the Yorktown-class carriers (including the well-famed Enterprise) after their first-hand experience of Pearl Harbor.

      That being said, I thought we were discussing about Allied ships here... looks like it's easy to go off topic here it seems.

      Well... not quite.

      The Japanese actually follows the 9-stage shit all the way to the end of the war, officially. But under Admiral Yamamoto, who was one of the biggest opponent agaist the doctrine, they altered the way of implementing the doctrine a bit (while still expecting a Kantai Kessen to conclude the war). If the Japanese actually followed the doctrine, there shouldn't be an attack on Pearl Harbor to begin with, let alone Coral Sea, Midway, or Operation FS.

      The Americans discarded War Plan Orange because the plan was based on Mahan's (a famous naval scholar) thoughts, which was proven wrong by the fact that the USN actually recovered much quicker from Pearl Harbor than Mahan predicted.


      Coming back to the topic of Allied ships... I think the devs will have to come up with a story to explain why US and Japan are fighting together, but it should not be a problem. After the establishment of Japan Self-Defense Forces, nearly all (yes, I mean it) fictional military novels in Japen (yes, they do exist) features fighting with the Americans. There shouldn't be any problems for the ship girls and the Japanese TTKs coping with that.

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    • The Abyssals are pretty non-subtly implied to be American ships, no? I mean they use imperial measurements for their guns, isn't that proof enough?

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    • Ransk wrote:
      The Abyssals are pretty non-subtly implied to be American ships, no? I mean they use imperial measurements for their guns, isn't that proof enough?

      That argument has been proven to be futile long, long time ago, for no allied ships, historical or planned, had 20-inch guns.

      By the way, no navies other than IJN features torpedo cruisers and ASW-capable CLs as well.

      What's more, after AL/MI, all new bosses feature their "Abyssal voice effect", aka the weird echo effect when an abyssal speak, to be gradually turned off when they are finally defeated. Which causes them to pronounce the last few words of their sinking line in the same way as our ship girls. In addition, their sinking lines are scripted to imply that they surfaced from deep sea, and become the players' ships.

      For some quick examples:

      DD Princess becomes Harusame when defeated

      DD Water Demon, Hagikaze

      CL Demon, Naka

      CL Hime, Jinntsu

      CV Hime, Kaga in terms of appearance, Akagi in terms of voice

      etc.

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    • Majority of the mook Abyssals seems to be based off the USN ships (make sense, since the USN can field out a lot more ships than IJN to the point that the latter will eventually be hopelessly outnumbered), whereas majority of the boss Abyssals are heavily based off IJN ships.

      Also, Tsu-class torpedo cruisers are actually weaker than a fully modernized Kitakami and Ooi, same goes for the 20inch guns.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Majority of the mook Abyssals seems to be based off the USN ships (make sense, since the USN can field out a lot more ships than IJN to the point that the latter will eventually be hopelessly outnumbered), whereas majority of the boss Abyssals are heavily based off IJN ships. Also, Tsu-class torpedo cruisers are actually weaker than a fully modernized Kitakami and Ooi, same goes for the 20inch guns.

      According to wikiwiki, all surface Abyssals are lvl1, and probably not modernized at all. (subs are Lv50) They don't have a TTK to modernize them anyway.

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    • Vcharng wrote:
      According to wikiwiki, all surface Abyssals are lvl 1, and probably not modernized at all. (subs are Lv50) They don't have a TTK to modernize them anyway.
      They're don't have any modernized stats at all, according to api_ekyouka parameter.
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    • Aren't there designs already for USN ships? Pacific: World War II U.S. Navy Shipgirls, right? I'd like to see them in Kancolle. The desings are just... Wow...

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Aren't there designs already for USN ships? Pacific: World War II U.S. Navy Shipgirls, right? I'd like to see them in Kancolle. The desings are just... Wow...

      That illustration book series is just fanarts. They are not officially accepted.

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Aren't there designs already for USN ships? Pacific: World War II U.S. Navy Shipgirls, right? I'd like to see them in Kancolle. The designs are just... Wow...
      Morgane would like to keep them in their own artbooks for now last I heard.
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    • I think the problem lies less with the fans or devs and more with the direction the game has been directed into, whether on purpose or not.  Given the current tone of the franchise and characterization of most of the characters, implementing Allied ships, particularly the USN, would currently be extremely difficult without it being jarring.  Many kanmusu tend to be characterized as fairly confrontational; they speak of their actions in-game like a second chance at success, saying things along the lines of "this time I won't fail."  This shows that they feel ashamed or unsatisfied with their past shortcomings and are trying to make up for them.  Fair enough as it is now, but with the introduction of Allied ships, they would suddenly be confronted with the source of all their grief, the very ships they lost to.  Any number of emotions would realistically result from such a confrontation, and none of them good: anger, jealousy, lost self esteem, depression, fear, etc.  As an example, Zuikaku, Taihou, and Ryuuhou all have lines about the insult "turkey"; this shows that they all still feel like that nickname applies to them (otherwise why bring it up?) and are ashamed by it and the means by which they got it, and in many of those same lines they rebuke the name and reassure TTK, as well as themselves, that it is no longer true.  Even more telling is that they say that "they" won't call them turkeys anymore.  Who is "they"?  The Abyssals rarely talk and none of them say anything about turkeys, so "they" can only refer to the ones that gave them the insulting nickname in the first place.  The fact that they still care about the insult and indirectly refer to the USN when commenting on their opinion of it shows that they are still antagonistic with the them or at least consider them as the people who humiliated them and saddled them with the name.  Do you really think that if Lexington II, the carrier that coined the phrase turkey shoot that's stuck with them for 70 years and they are desperately trying to rid themselves of (to say nothing of her other exploits at their expense), were to show up in the base tommorow, Zuikaku and the others would make a total 180 and be willing to be nice to her, much less be friends with her?  Given her canon frosty relationship with Kaga, who was on the same side, I'd say that's unlikely.  In terms of gameplay, I'd expect sortieing them together would cause a significant drop in morale if nothing else.  In fact, there are plenty of US ships that would get it worse: as shown in Fubuki's manga, almost all of the ships have sub trauma and treat their own subs with distrust because of it, so an actual US sub (heaven forbid it be Albacore) would cause pandemonium whenever she walked into a room.  She'd be lucky if anyone ever talked to her or she survived the night not being lynched.

      On the other hand, there are some ships that could see their former enemies in another light.  Those that have supposedly gotten over their past loss, such as what Shoukaku kai-2's library line suggests, may not react with resentment towards them, but instead see them as omnipresent competition, someone they have to, absolutely HAVE to, best at everything just to prove to themselves and their adversary that they have surpassed them.  That's possibly even more insulting because it equates the Allied ships they lost against as little else but hurdles for them to jump over so they can feel good about themselves.  Shoukaku from my example is too mellow for that, but there are plenty of ships that seem like they'd pull something like this.

      The RN ships may get along slightly better with the IJN ships than the USN ships, but would be almost certainly as bitter if not more so towards the Germans.  Quite frankly, the only kanmusu I think would accept any Allied ship as of right now is Inazuma, because she already shows signs of actually caring about those on the "other side" both in the past and the current conflict.  That's honestly a shame, because there are a lot of ships on the Allied side whose stories of failure and redemption make for wonderful character arcs, like West Virginia, who unfortunately won't get that story because their redemption requires the failure and loss of a bunch of fan favorites (West Virginia's in fact runs in complete opposition to the popular depiction of Shigure preventing the massacre at Surigao).

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    • My point being that before Allied ship girls can be added without it seeming forced or "unnatural" (for lack of a better term), the tone of the series and several characterizations have to change first.  (sorry for double post)

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    • 99.5.125.253 wrote:
      I think the problem lies less with the fans or devs and more with the direction the game has been directed into, whether on purpose or not.......

      Good job on putting that helluva lot of text up here, I'll conclude your views in to three points:

      1. The devs' view matters more than the players'

      2. Ship girls' hostility toward Allied ships.

      3. Player's reactions toward Allied ships

      Now...

      1. The only near-official announcement came in September 2013, in an interview, in which Tanaka, the producer, said that he would like to introduce ships of lots of nations in the future. He named Germany, US and UK.

      2. This is the third time I'm mentioning this: The Japanese Navy's hostility towards the Army was nowhere less fierce than the hostility toward US and UK. But as all of us can see, they fought together surprisingly well in KC.

      By the way, Verniy is totally fine with the German girls now, too.

      3. In case if you don't know, Japanese TTKs are even more fine with Allied ships than some people here are. I've seen them drooling for USS Enterprise, crying for HMS King George V, and licking lips for HMS Hood. In the negative way, I've also seen KC being criticized in Japan as a "imperialism propaganda" for featuring Axis ships only.

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    • aw... man... here i thought & excited, with the feeling that "I finally found a different game" because in this game, I did not find anything that smells super power nation (i mean look other historical game... absolutely or almost everything have US, UK, or allied forces in that game, and they all always superior & win) i am tired of that, and want to find other *taste*.

      thats why i want to play this kancolle.

      if tanaka decide to make allied kanmusu... ok, i'm in... but... well that makes kancolle *same* like other game... <= (with a sad tone)

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    • @Vcharng

      For #2, I think we had better not take those exaggerations too seriously. If that was literally true, they would have started shooting at each other and that did not happen. It might be also noted that the early war operations also had army navy cooperation and those went quite well too.

      Guadalcanal is another example. The Army was willing to send troops to try to retake a base (Henderson) it didn't think was such a swell idea, and the Navy was willing to lose a substantial amount of ships trying to support them. Cooperation is clearly not sky high, but let's not pretend their animosity was close to that they bear towards their enemies.

      Why would Verniy not be fine with German girls? She's became a Russian ship, but she started out Japanese and soon the Germans became an "ally" (some would say puppet state) of the Russians.

      For your #3, people that are at least OK with the idea of US ships may well be the majority but here you have to look at the minority and how vocal they'll be. Commerce is not a tyranny of the majority system. Rather, it places great weight on not offending vocal minorities.

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    • Severstal wrote:
      @Vcharng

      For #2, I think we had better not take those exaggerations too seriously.

      For your #3, people that are at least OK with the idea of US ships may well be the majority but here you have to look at the minority and how vocal they'll be. Commerce is not a tyranny of the majority system. Rather, it places great weight on not offending vocal minorities.

      That was NOT an exaggeration, god dammit.

      Where would you find a nation, whose navy and army would object an advise coming from each other just because "they are navy (army) and we are army (navy)"? And where would you find a nation, whose navy and army deliberately use completely different and un-interchangable equipments, all the way to screws and bolts? (The threads are opposite: Army used clockwise threads, Navy used counterclockwise threads, at least from what I found. It could be the opposite, but at least they do use screws of the opposite directions)

      "Commerce is not a tyranny of the majority system. Rather, it places great weight on not offending vocal minorities."

      Uh, really? Quite the opposite, though.

      Commerce is about satisfying the majority of the market, as it is always impossible to satisfy everyone. Offending vocal minorities is something they do everyday, and we can't quite blame them. From their interest, there's no point on saying "no" to the majority market in order to satisfy the minority.

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    • There is certainly a fair bit of army and navy roping themselves off from each other. However, this is them valuing their own independence and is more an act of bureaucracy maybe mixed with a bit of pride than it is an act of hostility. Uchi-soto (Insider/Outsider) has always been a little stronger in Japan than elsewhere and this is where we are seeing the effect, but that's not the same as hostility. And if you want to point to what may be apocryphal anecdotes, you'll have to look and deal with the times they did manage some cooperation as well.

      >Commerce is about satisfying the majority of the market

      Commerce is better described as maximizing the market sufficiently satisfied that they'll continue buying your product.  

      So yes, if it is between A which is 80% and B which is 20% well in the end they'll choose A. However, at least for the moment, even if A is the majority they can be sufficiently placated using German ships, Italian ships, maybe later French ships. They are only somewhat interested in seeing Allied ships. For the moment it is not a deal breaker or even major minus if they don't.

      Which leaves their priority towards placating B, who might indeed see it as a deal breaker if Allied ships are inserted. Though it may be only 20%, there's no need to risk losing their business yet.

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    • Severstal wrote:
      There is certainly a fair bit of army and navy roping themselves off from each other. However, this is them valuing their own independence and is more an act of bureaucracy maybe mixed with a bit of pride than it is an act of hostility. Uchi-soto (Insider/Outsider) has always been a little stronger in Japan than elsewhere and this is where we are seeing the effect, but that's not the same as hostility. And if you want to point to what may be apocryphal anecdotes, you'll have to look and deal with the times they did manage some cooperation as well.

      >Commerce is about satisfying the majority of the market

      Commerce is better described as maximizing the market sufficiently satisfied that they'll continue buying your product.  

      So yes, if it is between A which is 80% and B which is 20% well in the end they'll choose A. However, at least for the moment, even if A is the majority they can be sufficiently placated using German ships, Italian ships, maybe later French ships. They are only somewhat interested in seeing Allied ships. For the moment it is not a deal breaker or even major minus if they don't.

      Which leaves their priority towards placating B, who might indeed see it as a deal breaker if Allied ships are inserted. Though it may be only 20%, there's no need to risk losing their business yet.

      It was not just "valueing their independence", it was a centry-long history of hate.

      The history is long, but I'll make it brief: IJN came from Satsuma, an ancient Domain that mostly became Kagoshima Prefecture today, while IJA came from Choushu, another Domain that was some what equal to modern Yamaguchi Prefecture. They had a long and bitter history with each other during the times when Japan was dominated by patriarches. As the patriarch of Satsuma became IJN and Choushu, IJA, the history was not forgotten, even though by then they have already formed an allience.


      Remember, in reality, the "20% deal breaker" is the few people that questions KC as whether it's an imperialism propaganda. So for your case, the devs even more should introduce Allied ships.

      As for those "Axis purists", they are simply not allowed to exist in post-war Japan, though they do exist in forms of extreme IJN enthusiasts overseas, or deep inside far-right Japanese politician's minds, they are nowhere to be seen in the visible part of Japan.

      BTW, far-right politicians and their supporters are enemies of the ACG industry after Mayor Ishihara brough up a new act, which greatly limited the freedom of ACG work in Tokyo. There's zero point on trying to satisfy a group of people who are already hostile to the entire ACG industry, you know.

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    • LordCerberus wrote:
      aw... man... here i thought & excited, with the feeling that "I finally found a different game" because in this game, I did not find anything that smells super power nation (i mean look other historical game... absolutely or almost everything have US, UK, or allied forces in that game, and they all always superior & win) i am tired of that, and want to find other *taste*.

      thats why i want to play this kancolle.

      if tanaka decide to make allied kanmusu... ok, i'm in... but... well that makes kancolle *same* like other game... <= (with a sad tone)


      You do know that like Hibiki, Yukikaze was ceded to the Allies after the war, and served in the ROC (aka Republic of China/Taiwan) navy all the way into the 60s right? That technically means they are not going to kai2 Yukikaze unless they do the same as Hibiki, and if they do that technically makes Yukikaze an "Allied" ships right?

      Have fun looking at your beaver differently now!

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Right. She was sold to Taiwan...

      I actually did not know that. About Hyuuga knowing about the new Hyuuga.

      Technically she was given as after war compensation, not sold. Also, at that time, ROC hadn't lost the civil war yet, so not just Taiwan at the moment...

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    • Cgk999 wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      Right. She was sold to Taiwan...

      I actually did not know that. About Hyuuga knowing about the new Hyuuga.

      Technically she was given as after war compensation, not sold. Also, at that time, ROC hadn't lost the civil war yet, so not just Taiwan at the moment...

      That's actually the first I've heard of Taiwan having a civil war. Damn, I need to pay more attention in History class...

      Anyway, what about the ships from Operation Crossroads? I think I read somewhere that certain ships have a selective amnesia of this, but remember bits and pieces, or something. Surely, they'd remember that the enemy they fought against was also thrown on the chopping board by the very country that said enemies served?

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    • Advancer231 wrote:

      Cgk999 wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      Right. She was sold to Taiwan...

      I actually did not know that. About Hyuuga knowing about the new Hyuuga.

      Technically she was given as after war compensation, not sold. Also, at that time, ROC hadn't lost the civil war yet, so not just Taiwan at the moment...

      That's actually the first I've heard of Taiwan having a civil war. Damn, I need to pay more attention in History class...

      Anyway, what about the ships from Operation Crossroads? I think I read somewhere that certain ships have a selective amnesia of this, but remember bits and pieces, or something. Surely, they'd remember that the enemy they fought against was also thrown on the chopping board by the very country that said enemies served?

      The civil war in question is not Taiwan's civil war. It is the Chinese civil war that lead to Taiwan rule by a government different from mainland China which is know as ROC.

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    • Alright, time for a history lessen from a Taiwanese.

      In 1949, the Republic of China, aka THE China during WWII, lost a civil war against the communists, and retreated to Taiwan, which was just returned into China's hands in 1945. After the communists successfully occupied Mainland China, they established People's Republic of China, or the China NOW.

      Some people refer to Yukikaze as being sent to Taiwan, in order to make sure no one gets the wrong idea. I wouldn't personally consider this as wrong, but if you want to know more in detail, you need to be careful.

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      It was not just "valueing their independence", it was a centry-long history of hate.

      The history is long, but I'll make it brief: IJN came from Satsuma, an ancient Domain that mostly became Kagoshima Prefecture today, while IJA came from Choushu, another Domain that was some what equal to modern Yamaguchi Prefecture. They had a long and bitter history with each other during the times when Japan was dominated by patriarches. As the patriarch of Satsuma became IJN and Choushu, IJA, the history was not forgotten, even though by then they have already formed an allience. Remember, in reality, the "20% deal breaker" is the few people that questions KC as whether it's an imperialism propaganda. So for your case, the devs even more should introduce Allied ships.

      As for those "Axis purists", they are simply not allowed to exist in post-war Japan, though they do exist in forms of extreme IJN enthusiasts overseas, or deep inside far-right Japanese politician's minds, they are nowhere to be seen in the visible part of Japan.

      BTW, far-right politicians and their supporters are enemies of the ACG industry after Mayor Ishihara brough up a new act, which greatly limited the freedom of ACG work in Tokyo. There's zero point on trying to satisfy a group of people who are already hostile to the entire ACG industry, you know.

      This is interesting history, but it is also ancient history. It is a REAL stretch to use this to say they hate each other (as of 1941) at a level comparable to against real enemies. And you still aren't dealing with the times when they did manage some degree of cooperation.

      And I don't think it is "Axis-purist" to oppose allied ships. From a characterization standpoint, the opposition's concerns are legitimate. Sometimes, once you've written your characters up to a certain extent, you are no longer as free to add whatever plotline you wish.

      There are undoubtedly some that go for the imperialist line, but I doubt they are close to 20% and if they think like that, adding allied ships won't placate them. They'll next complain about the balance, or why THIS (something like Albacore) wasn't added. There are some people you can't placate and that's important to keep in mind as well.

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    • Severstal wrote:

      This is interesting history, but it is also ancient history. It is a REAL stretch to use this to say they hate each other (as of 1941) at a level comparable to against real enemies. And you still aren't dealing with the times when they did manage some degree of cooperation.

      Some degree, merely. The IJA was preparing for a war against Russia all the way until 1943, what kind of cooperation is that?

      In fact the IJA and IJN was once fine with each other, when they formed an allience to establish the Japanese government in late 19th centuary. But by 1930, the high-rank officials that had better impressions with each other are either dead or retired, the new generation of officers and officials in both IJA and IJN, they don't like each other so much.

      And then, the Japanese military fell into a whole deep shitload of internal political confrontation. Including the disputes of  switching sides from US and UK into Germany and Italy. Next thing we know, some front-line admirals of IJA then dragged Japan in to the Second Sino-Japanese War, and by extension, WWII Pacific Theater.

      Yes, IJN (most notably Yonai Mitsumasa, Yamamoto Isoroku, and Inoue Narumi) was on the side of staying with US and UK during the dispute of switching sides, so it is very possible that IJN likes US and UK more than IJA.

      A real stretch? Not at all. In 1941, the bitter "war" between IJA and IJN was fresh, coming directly from the 1930s.

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    • Severstal wrote:

      There are undoubtedly some that go for the imperialist line, but I doubt they are close to 20% and if they think like that, adding allied ships won't placate them. They'll next complain about the balance, or why THIS (something like Albacore) wasn't added. There are some people you can't placate and that's important to keep in mind as well.

      You don't quite know much about the Japanese, do you?

      After WWII, Japan became extremely disgusted about ANYTHING that is visibly related to the war-time Japan. They blame the government for the whole war, and vows to stand against anything that is similar to what the pre-war Japanese government did. 

      Because of  that, every WWII game made in Japan has to face the same question: Is it trying to promote imperialism? Even a normal, not-at-all-propaganda-ish strategic WWII game like Teitoku no Ketsudan failed to satisfy the Japanese standard.

      Does adding Allied ships placate them? Definitely better than Axis ships only. Do you know why Teitoku no Ketsudan faced disputes in Japan and China, while a similar game by the same company, called Kurogane no Hoko, did not? Because in Kurogane, the whole damn war is fictional, using WWII weapons, but not fighting historical WWII. By making Allied ships and Axis ships fighting together, KC will become just like Kurogane, and thus exempt from such disputes. This worked for Kurogane, supposedly it would work for KC as well.

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    • @Vcharng 

      Best not to make such charges too soon. I have played Teitoku and Kurogane, and Teitoku (the version I played anyway, IIRC it was III, on a Playstation I) also allows play as the Allies.

      Anyway, you are right that about 10 or 20 years ago, if they even made a similar game they'll have included Allied ships from the start, maybe even given them prime place, to avoid controversy. But we are in 2015 and not 2005 and over the past ten years the correlation of forces between left and right have shifted. While the "left" is still certainly powerful, they are definitely weaker and also less eager to call foul at every shadow. KanColle reflects this.

      For your other post, I'll point out that having a pet project, using units that won't be very useful to the Navy (due to limited shipping) anyway or having different views of what's best for the nation does not mean animosity surpassing that directed towards their enemies.

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    • Severstal wrote:
      @Vcharng 

      Best not to make such charges too soon. I have played Teitoku and Kurogane, and Teitoku (the version I played anyway, IIRC it was III, on a Playstation I) also allows play as the Allies.

      Anyway, you are right that about 10 or 20 years ago, if they even made a similar game they'll have included Allied ships from the start, maybe even given them prime place, to avoid controversy. But we are in 2015 and not 2005 and over the past ten years the correlation of forces between left and right have shifted. While the "left" is still certainly powerful, they are definitely weaker and also less eager to call foul at every shadow. KanColle reflects this.

      For your other post, I'll point out that having a pet project, using units that won't be very useful to the Navy (due to limited shipping) anyway or having different views of what's best for the nation does not mean animosity surpassing that directed towards their enemies.

      Yes, Teitoku and Kurogana both allows playing as Allies, nevertheless, Tetoku got disputed as imperialism (and even got fined in China), while Kurogane didn't. So the problem is having a WWII game that allows playing as Axis, not having Allies or not. So the only way out for KC is to make the war we are fighting "not WWII", or "we are not Axis". Letting Allied ships fight "WITH" Japanese ship girls would achive so.

      That's what I was talking about in my previous post. The problem is not being able to play as Allied or not, the problem is to be able to play purely as Axis in WWII. Kurogane series, at least WSG, WSG2(P) and WSC3, feature completely fictional storylines. In WSC3 you play as a fleet commander of a fictional nation, that invades the whole world from Antartica; In WSG2, you are also from a fictional nation, but you fight with the rest of the world, against rebels from your own nation. Both went well in Japan with no disputes.

      I will remind you one last time: Unlike some Japanese over-sensitive leftist thinks, KC is NOT a right-wing game. Thus, it does NOT reflect any political shift in Japan. Remember, when KC project started (in 2012), the center-left Democratic Party was still in charge.

      About IJA and IJN, I wouldn't say their mutual hate completely surpass that toward US or UK. Instead, I would rather say they are "enemies that don't shoot each other on the battlefield, they fight by other means".

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    • Jeez this thing is still going on after all this time? You guys do realize how silly it is to argue about left and right-wing politics behind a game right? If you are concerned about Japanese politics, this little thread about a game that even the devs probably won't read isn't going to change anything.

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    • 99.65.176.158 wrote:
      Jeez this thing is still going on after all this time? You guys do realize how silly it is to argue about left and right-wing politics behind a game right? If you are concerned about Japanese politics, this little thread about a game that even the devs probably won't read isn't going to change anything.

      We are (or at least, I am) not trying to change anything anyway.

      For me, it's just that the concept of KC being an "Axis game" disgusts me. In my country, there are far too many sympathizers of the imperialists, who recently gone wild, wanting KC to be an IJN propaganda, being all nostalgic to Japanese rule, and hoping that the Japanese will return and rule the country again.

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    • 99.65.176.158 wrote: Jeez this thing is still going on after all this time? You guys do realize how silly it is to argue about left and right-wing politics behind a game right? If you are concerned about Japanese politics, this little thread about a game that even the devs probably won't read isn't going to change anything.

      Just read the discussion line by line then you can see the topic is always about the game.

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    • A rather novel idea I had for Allied ship girl implementation would be to be rather subtle about it at first.  This franchise has several print mediums currently running to use and an upcoming movie; maybe they put in a cleverly placed newsreel playing in the background (bonus points if it's in the stereotypical 40s documentary/propaganda style with the loud and peppy announcer, sepia tone, and large expressive print) that teases or cameos Allied ship girls operating somewhere else in the ocean.  They could use that to gauge audience interest in the concept without going all the way too soon and still finally be rid of accusations of being pro-imperialist.  If the cameo is noticed and well received, then they can introduce Allied ship girls.  Perhaps if they want to be extra careful, they could be introduced in the same medium outside the game (manga, anime, whatever) before being formally introduced ingame; this option could be used to introduce characters like the Iowas or Essexes whose stats may unbalance the game (or provide an explanation for their nerf) and get the audience used to their characters ahead of seeing their stats to make their inclusion smoother.

      Personally, I find the idea that the girls of the Fast Carriers Task Force have a global popularity and fanbase like that of a pop idol group where everyone knows every member and argue over "best girl" absolutely hilarious.

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      We are (or at least, I am) not trying to change anything anyway.

      For me, it's just that the concept of KC being an "Axis game" disgusts me. In my country, there are far too many sympathizers of the imperialists, who recently gone wild, wanting KC to be an IJN propaganda, being all nostalgic to Japanese rule, and hoping that the Japanese will return and rule the country again.

      Really now? Which country are living in?

      I actuslly heard about the whole "Right-Wing" thing becomeing as issue again through a fic I was reading. Not really updated much on the matter, but I'm guessing that it's basically that the people in charge sympathize with Imperial Japan of thw WWII era and don;t have that good opinions on Americans, right?

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Vcharng wrote:

      We are (or at least, I am) not trying to change anything anyway.

      For me, it's just that the concept of KC being an "Axis game" disgusts me. In my country, there are far too many sympathizers of the imperialists, who recently gone wild, wanting KC to be an IJN propaganda, being all nostalgic to Japanese rule, and hoping that the Japanese will return and rule the country again.

      Really now? Which country are living in?

      I actuslly heard about the whole "Right-Wing" thing becomeing as issue again through a fic I was reading. Not really updated much on the matter, but I'm guessing that it's basically that the people in charge sympathize with Imperial Japan of thw WWII era and don;t have that good opinions on Americans, right?

      In Taiwan. And it is not about the people in charge, it's about the vast civilians.

      Further information is available in my message wall, you can click my ID and read it.

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    • Vcharng wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      Vcharng wrote:

      We are (or at least, I am) not trying to change anything anyway.

      For me, it's just that the concept of KC being an "Axis game" disgusts me. In my country, there are far too many sympathizers of the imperialists, who recently gone wild, wanting KC to be an IJN propaganda, being all nostalgic to Japanese rule, and hoping that the Japanese will return and rule the country again.

      Really now? Which country are living in?

      I actuslly heard about the whole "Right-Wing" thing becomeing as issue again through a fic I was reading. Not really updated much on the matter, but I'm guessing that it's basically that the people in charge sympathize with Imperial Japan of thw WWII era and don;t have that good opinions on Americans, right?

      In Taiwan. And it is not about the people in charge, it's about the vast civilians.

      Further information is available in my message wall, you can click my ID and read it.

      I don't suppose your flagship is/was Yukikaze? 

      That's the first I've heard about civvies going right wing. Let alone in a nation outside of Japan. I mean, speaking as a Filipino whose ancestors were either victims/knew victims/were realted to victims (hell, one of my mom's great uncles was a guerilla during that time) of Japanese cruelty, I find it hard to believe. Then again, that's here in the PH, so I can;t say the same for other countires...

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    • As an outsider, I believe there are quite a few different factors that lead to the current sceanrio there which some sympathize Imperial Japan, including:

      • The initial occupation of Taiwan by Japanese people were 120 years away and that's too far away, and after some unrest (massacre included) during the early occupation the situation settled down without any further major incident betwwen Japan and local people, except differential treatment received by local people. But what happened back then were usually not experienced in first hand by people live in nowadays either so probably they don't know what that mean.
      • Then WWII happened, since Taiwan is already a Japanese colony for several decades, little military action were taken on Taiwan proper afaik (or relatively little), and thus what Imperial Japan damaged on Taiwan would be forced labour, comfort women, conscripting people and putting some people into jail and torture them. These can't be compared to what Japanese Army done in other area that they newly occupied and thus a different level of emotion would be understandable especially for those who have weaker sense of affiliation with the Chinese ethnicity and neglect what happened outside Taiwan back then.
      • After Japan's defeat, Republic of China rule Taiwan, and they're welcomed by local people initially. But after one or two years, tension between local people and those who come from mainland increase, causing what being known as 2.28 incident later which include a massacre that killed 18-28 thousands people according to official report, and soon after that the government enforced a martial law for more than four decades until early 1990s. It meanconsiderable amount of modern Taiwan people grow from this age, which due to the relatively high pressure policy enacted by government when martial law is enforced, most people grow up in this age would still have an emotional attachment on mainland China I suppose (but I am not sure about it).
      • Then, after the end of martial law rule, different idea surface, including the idea of an independent Taiwan, and soon it become the guiding principle for the largest opposition party (DPP). As a opposition party formed right after martial law end, it include lots of people being suppressed during the martial law age and gained support among who share similar political view. In year 2000, they become ruling party till 2008, and during the period they revised textbook and changed their use of word to make Taiwan more close to independence. As it go, people would look back on the history, and for those who don't have much attachment onto their Chinese ethnicity, they would think those bad-doing committed by Japanese Army in mainland China like massive massacre have little to do with them. Then, they look back onto what Imperial Japan have done to Taiwan, compare that with what the martial age government have done to Taiwan, some of those people would then say Imperial Japan would be better than the martial age government, which the ruling party during martial law time (KMT) is still one of the two largest party in Taiwan nowadays, but I am not entirely sure how that make some people think Imperial Japan would be good to the current Taiwan. Some arguments I have seen from Taiwan that favour Imperial Japan were that they've built many infrastructure and opened some institute in Taiwan, but these doesn't make those people sympathize Imperial Japan. I've yet to met someone who actually have sympathy on Imperial Japan from Japan thus I can't really talk about what they think.

      On the other hand, I think it's not unique to Taiwan, for instance as I read from Wikipedia few weeks ago, after WWII, in the Mariana Islands, the different in feeling towards Japan among those islands rule by Japan since the end of WWI's German defeat and those islands once acquired by Japan during the WWII resulted in some serious conflict, and in both North and South Korea there's a need of decolonization from their government which even nowadays South Korea government placed some regulations on Japanese cultural product, and in North East China which were ruled by a Japanese proxy government sonce 1931, according to what I read on Chinese internet, there're some intra-regional divide on the topic if emotion against Japan due to individual experience during the era.

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    • You guys really need to find out the difference between 本音 and 建前.

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    • Hayashi H wrote:
      You guys really need to find out the difference between 本音 and 建前.
      What do you meant by that?
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    • Hayashi H wrote:
      You guys really need to find out the difference between 本音 and 建前.

      I can assure you though, that those Imperial Japan sympathizers in Taiwan are saying their 本音, or true thoughts.

      Qunow's analysis is pretty good, I think I have very few things to add.

      For example, the reasons behind those sympathizers are indeed partly because of those infrastructures, but of course that's not gonna be enough, as KMT built more per ruling year than the Japanese. If you examine how those sympathizers describe life under IJN rule, it won't take you long to realize that they are actually talking about the lives of those who are "particularly cooperative" to the Japanese. In other words, by propaganda magic, they made people believe that everyone under Japanese rule actually had that high a level of life.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Hayashi H wrote:
      You guys really need to find out the difference between 本音 and 建前.
      What do you meant by that?

      本音means true/genuine/actual thoughts.

      建前means what you say in front of others, when this term is used, usually it implies that it is NOT what you actually think.

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    • Basically the image KDKW needs to portray to the public is not necessarily what they wanted something to be. They cannot and will not ever declare Abyssals to be the Allies, and from a PR point of view will do whatever is needed to keep the intended identity of the Abyssals as ambiguous as possible. But to say that Allied ships are unlikely to appear as playable ships will be an understatement. Inasmuch as the tatemae is declared explicitly, the honne is communicated implicitly. Even if KDKW was pressured into releasing playable Allies, it would alienate a significant section of their player base.

      KDKW/DMM's policy on allowing gaijin to play KanColle is also similar. The tatemae is that KanColle service is restricted to Japanese IPs. The honne is in their inaction to fix very easily circumvented (and easily fixed) loopholes in the region restriction system. The impression must always be that gaijin who are playing have gotten around the restrictions, never that they are freely allowing gaijin to. When communicating with KDKW, gaijin who expect any help with anything are expected to follow the tatemae by communicating exclusively in Japanese, or else you will never get a useful response. The honne will be in that even if your Japanese is at such a obviously horrendously bad level that you cannot be anything but a gaijin, they will still respond as if you are a domestic player.

      It's somewhat complicated to explain, but the difference between the honne-tatemae dichotomy and the truth-lie dichotomy gaijin are more familiar with is that in the latter, someone who lies has the intent to deceive the listener, while in the former, someone who uses tatemae does not have any intent to - but wants to communicate the true message in an unspoken form beneath the veneer of a socially acceptable exterior. The listener is expected to respond as if literally responding to the exterior, while replying with an unspoken indication to the original sender that the unsaid communication is acknowledged. In a way it's a lot more similar to sarcasm than lying - since when making sarcastic remarks about a third party, a sender also says something different from what is intended and the recipient also acknowledges both explicit and implicit communications at once in the same way. Someone who doesn't 'get' tatemae is similar to someone in the West who doesn't 'get' sarcasm, taking what is said literally.

      Some gaijin Japanese Studies professors display an obvious lack of understanding the system in their published papers, but if you ever want to get anywhere in understanding Japan, you must tackle this at some point or be forever stuck outside the façade.

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    • Hayashi H wrote:

      It's somewhat complicated to explain, 

      Let me make your wall of texts a bit easier:

      KDKW and DMM is a pair of tsundere, they say they don't welcome foreigners, but in fact, all you need to do is to speak basic Japanese and use a fake Japanese IP, then they will welcome you like it's nothing special.

      There's a simple explaination to such tsundere-ness: DMM is a porn site. It is very likely that because of that, they have to restrict foreigners from accessing the whole damn site (due to some requirements from Japanese law or the like), and unfortunately that includes KC, although KC is NOT porn.


      BTW, KC is one of the few games on DMM that allows you to turn off VPN once you've logged, in, most others require you to stay on a Japanese VPN in order to continue playing.

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    • Read the whole thing, because your 'summary' is almost entirely incorrect except the tsundere part, because tsundere is a form of tatemae-speech.

      Also, dmm.com is not porn. dmm.co.jp is porn. KanColle is hosted on dmm.com. And the ability to access DMM with cookie modification as opposed to hard-requiring a Japanese IP like some other DMM applications (say, Daily Pachinko) has to do with the tatemae-honne thing with KDKW that you clearly have not read, not with whether it's porn or not. There are plenty of Japanese porn sites you can pay for regardless of your local or gaijin status.

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    • If most of DMM games can't be played without leaving the VPN on then I've been living the thug life.

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    • I haven't played enough of the other DMM games to be able to say, but perhaps hard IP blocks that require VPN to bypass are by other developers that wish to close entirely to gaijin, whereas those which are cookie-bypassable are by developers that tatemae-close honne-open to gaijin.

      Zel-melon wrote: If most of DMM games can't be played without leaving the VPN on then I've been living the thug life.

      The thug life chose you.

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      1. Yesterday, the official fubuki 4koma updated, in the chapter they briefly touched the possibility of introducing UK carrier (when they talk about which carrier they could meet in 2015 Fall Event). Probably it'd be a sign as that 4koma seem to be the adaption with closest relationship with devs.
      2. The strangest thing about DMM is that accessing the R18's dmm.co.jp from foreign IP actually get less restriction than accessing the regular dmm.com, for instance if you on mobile and access dmm.com you can see in login screen that only 2 section you're allowed in, but in dmm.co.jp you can enter all section even with a foreign IP.
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    • Hayashi H wrote:
      Read the whole thing, because your 'summary' is almost entirely incorrect except the tsundere part, because tsundere is a form of tatemae-speech.

      Incorrect except the tsundere part? Then what's left of my summary? DMM/KDKW being Tsundere is pretty much all I wanted to say, you know?

      Well, I didn't know that DMM.com is different from DMM.co.jp, though, thanks.

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    • I've actually been trying to use cookies to play KanColle for a while now, but it's not working. I don't know if I should clear my browser or make a new email that's exclusively Japanese, but something on the site's keeping me out, despite following the instructions on the wiki to the letter, and as much as I want to play the game, I'm confined to reading about it (Which kinda sucks, because there's a huge difference between deciding which ship you want to marry, and actually marrying the ship. Wait for me, Kongou. One day).

      And about the possibility of a UK carrier, anyone have an idea on who it is? My money's on either Ark Royal, given her history with Bismarck, or Hermes, given that she and Houshou were the first ships built from the keel as carriers.

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    • Qunow wrote:
      #Yesterday, the official fubuki 4koma updated, in the chapter they briefly touched the possibility of introducing UK carrier (when they talk about which carrier they could meet in 2015 Fall Event). Probably it'd be a sign as that 4koma seem to be the adaption with closest relationship with devs.

      I would say, while not able to read the 4koma, that they were just guessing around when they heard about a new carrier coming. It is only natural as the Fall event happened right after the introduction of Shoukaku-class K2A.

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    • Advancer231 wrote:

      And about the possibility of a UK carrier, anyone have an idea on who it is? My money's on either Ark Royal, given her history with Bismarck, or Hermes, given that she and Houshou were the first ships built from the keel as carriers.

      Imagine the situation that Qunow told us: They mentioned something that is possibly a UK carrier, most likely withOUT mentioning "UK". (Really don't think that the official 4koma would dare to say something like that directly)

      How can this be done? The only probable way of doing this is to say "foreign, probably European, armored carrier". If you only say European carrier, it could be Graf Zep, Aquila, or the UK girls, but if you say European armored carrier, that would definitely mean British.

      And that would mean Illustrous or Implacable-class.

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    • Cgk999 wrote:
      LordCerberus wrote:
      aw... man... here i thought & excited, with the feeling that "I finally found a different game" because in this game, I did not find anything that smells super power nation (i mean look other historical game... absolutely or almost everything have US, UK, or allied forces in that game, and they all always superior & win) i am tired of that, and want to find other *taste*.

      thats why i want to play this kancolle.

      if tanaka decide to make allied kanmusu... ok, i'm in... but... well that makes kancolle *same* like other game... <= (with a sad tone)


      You do know that like Hibiki, Yukikaze was ceded to the Allies after the war, and served in the ROC (aka Republic of China/Taiwan) navy all the way into the 60s right? That technically means they are not going to kai2 Yukikaze unless they do the same as Hibiki, and if they do that technically makes Yukikaze an "Allied" ships right?

      Have fun looking at your beaver differently now!

      no problem mate, besides i am no fans of Yukikaze

      i still hope Kantai Collection never change.

      minus 10 - 20 Destroyer got no kai-Ni IMHO is Better than makes this game crowded By Allied ship. like thousands other games. and thats BORING

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    • Advancer231 wrote: I've actually been trying to use cookies to play KanColle for a while now, but it's not working. I don't know if I should clear my browser or make a new email that's exclusively Japanese, but something on the site's keeping me out, despite following the instructions on the wiki to the letter, and as much as I want to play the game, I'm confined to reading about it (Which kinda sucks, because there's a huge difference between deciding which ship you want to marry, and actually marrying the ship. Wait for me, Kongou. One day).

      VPN is the only way to register for KanColle, and you need to be in JP timezone to select a server. That said all servers are full at the moment and the devs will tweet again once Hashirajima has been expanded.

      The cookie method does not work for new account creation. You must be on an Japanese IP to make the account. Only after the account has been created and a server assigned to it will the cookie method work.

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    • Nope, devs have already expanded kancolle game server capacity yesterday or the day before and reopened it for people to register into it.

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    • The plot go like this: Ise announced E4 with one of the objective is to attempt contact an overseas friendly ship which rumored to be a carrier. Then Bismarck and Littorio volunteered as they worry about potential communication problem due to different language. Then, Kongou also volunteered for the language of England, followed by Hiei. Ise slightly anxious about the empty-headed duos but still decided to let them join.

      Then, during the voyage, Hiyou asked Bismarck and Littorio about do they have any idea on who will come, but they can't think of anyone that fit. Then Hiyou turn to Kongou and said "Then, England...." with an wry emotion while Kongou stil empty-headly desu-ing over a far corner, Littorio responded "Should be ok..." with sweat drop.

      (actually it would be more time saving to read the 4koma directly than come up with hypothesis about what's in the 4koma or me describing them as there're only two pages relevant plus they're available on web for free and translated by fans into multiple languages.

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    • Qunow wrote:
      The plot go like this:

      Ise announced E4 with one of the objective is to attempt contact an overseas friendly ship which rumored to be a carrier. Then Bismarck and Littorio volunteered as they worry about potential communication problem due to different language. Then, Kongou also volunteered for the language of England, followed by Hiei. Ise slightly anxious about the empty-headed duos but still decided to let them join.

      Then, during the voyage, Hiyou asked Bismarck and Littorio about do they have any idea on who will come, but they can't think of anyone that fit. Then Hiyou turn to Kongou and said "Then, England...." with an wry emotion while Kongou stil empty-headly desu-ing over a far corner, Littorio responded "Should be ok..." with sweat drop.

      (actually it would be more time saving to read the 4koma directly than come up with hypothesis about what's in the 4koma or me describing them as there're only two pages relevant plus they're available on web for free and translated by fans into multiple languages.

      Well, where is it? Didn't see this chapter in bato.to though.

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      Well, where is it? Didn't see this chapter in bato.to though.

      Not translated yet afaik, but you can read the raws here.
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    • Very late to this lengthy discussion, I just want to remind everyone, that the fact of adding allied ships or not is not the most important thing. The most important thing is to not let American/any foreign game publishers win their regional rights to Kancolle, because that would mean the end of our current TTK career (DMM/KDKW would need to enforce stricter IP blocking).

      Also, it's 100% guaranteed that those American/foreign game publishers will fuck up the game, because 1) they are catering to a completely different audience with significantly different values. 2) they will just milk paying players for all they are worth, then ditch the game. They have no incentive to keep the game running as if their livelihood depends on it. 3) they have pro-American/Western ideologies which will clash with Japanese ideology. 4) their version will not be the same or be lagging in features (thanks to budget/ideology/profit) 5) their customer service is horrible. They only take suggestions to increase profit, but not the fun.

      The OP might be just who his name suggests, a merchant / game publisher. It is very common for American publishers to scoop around fan sites to gauge popularity, like Yen Press is infamous for ruining light novels. There are many anonymous near the beginning of the thread which I suspect is trying to manipulate the discussion, thanks to VPN/proxy.

      If we want to continue to have fun in this game, it is best to not help American/Western published gauge popularity or help them get what they want. We should just sit back and be happy with whatever KDKW comes up with, as long as it's fun for us.

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    • 70.83.39.226 wrote:
      American/any foreign game publishers win their regional rights to Kancolle

      Not gonna happen, remember that KC includes what can be seen as underage nudity, which would make KC illegal anywhere outside Japan.

      It's the damn first time I've ever been glad of the western hostility toward Japanese ACG culture.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Vcharng wrote:
      Well, where is it? Didn't see this chapter in bato.to though.
      Not translated yet afaik, but you can read the raws here.

      Alright, I've read it.

      From the fact that Bismarck and Littorio both somewhat remembered something, it should be considered, while very slight, a solid mention of British carriers. Bismarck was attacked by swordfishes from HMS Ark Royal, while Littorio was hit during the battle of Taranto by swordfishes from HMS Illustrious.

      BTW, the same 4koma also mentioned about Yukikaze becoming Tan Yang, as when Unryu was introduced, the girls discussed: "Is she (Unryu) Chinese?" "Shall we find Yukikaze then?"

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    • 70.83.39.226 wrote:
      Also, it's 100% guaranteed that those American/foreign game publishers will fuck up the game.
      Electronic Arts comes into my mind for that one. Pretty much any game franchises that ended up in their acquisitions are treated like toilet papers. Not sure whether it is true now, but better safe than sorry.
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    • Vcharng wrote:
      70.83.39.226 wrote:
      American/any foreign game publishers win their regional rights to Kancolle
      Not gonna happen, remember that KC includes what can be seen as underage nudity, which would make KC illegal anywhere outside Japan.

      It's the damn first time I've ever been glad of the western hostility toward Japanese ACG culture.


      I wouldn't be so sure, Japan caved in for TPP after all. There is some talk in their government to increase censorship no? When money is involved, you can't trust people, especially with Japan's sky high debt. The fact that some merchant is trying to "survey the market" on this Wikia should sound the alarm already. Who knows what kind of backroom deal/underhand tactics they are trying to pull.

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    • 70.83.39.226 wrote:

      Vcharng wrote:
      70.83.39.226 wrote:
      American/any foreign game publishers win their regional rights to Kancolle
      Not gonna happen, remember that KC includes what can be seen as underage nudity, which would make KC illegal anywhere outside Japan.

      It's the damn first time I've ever been glad of the western hostility toward Japanese ACG culture.


      I wouldn't be so sure, Japan caved in for TPP after all. There is some talk in their government to increase censorship no? When money is involved, you can't trust people, especially with Japan's sky high debt. The fact that some merchant is trying to "survey the market" on this Wikia should sound the alarm already. Who knows what kind of backroom deal/underhand tactics they are trying to pull.
      Gee, you think they'll pressure DMM to license a Western Kancolle spinoff to an American game company and force all foreigners to go there? Non-American gamers, especially the Chinese and Taiwanese players definitely won't stand for that.
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    • 70.83.39.226 wrote:


      I wouldn't be so sure, Japan caved in for TPP after all. There is some talk in their government to increase censorship no? When money is involved, you can't trust people, especially with Japan's sky high debt. The fact that some merchant is trying to "survey the market" on this Wikia should sound the alarm already. Who knows what kind of backroom deal/underhand tactics they are trying to pull.

      In terms of TPP, what you should actually worry about is things like KC being banned wholesale.

      Not gonna happen as well though. If the ACG industry is gone, who's gonna fund those right-wing politicians then? Remember that the Japanese internet community is dominated by ACG culture, in other words, if you mess with ACG, you are declaring war with the whole internet community of Japan. An old noob called Ishihara did this before, and so he is very fucked up now.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:

      70.83.39.226 wrote:


      Vcharng wrote:
      70.83.39.226 wrote:
      American/any foreign game publishers win their regional rights to Kancolle
      Not gonna happen, remember that KC includes what can be seen as underage nudity, which would make KC illegal anywhere outside Japan.

      It's the damn first time I've ever been glad of the western hostility toward Japanese ACG culture.


      I wouldn't be so sure, Japan caved in for TPP after all. There is some talk in their government to increase censorship no? When money is involved, you can't trust people, especially with Japan's sky high debt. The fact that some merchant is trying to "survey the market" on this Wikia should sound the alarm already. Who knows what kind of backroom deal/underhand tactics they are trying to pull.
      Gee, you think they'll pressure DMM to license a Western Kancolle spinoff to an American game company and force all foreigners to go there? Non-American gamers, especially the Chinese and Taiwanese players definitely won't stand for that.

      If they can convince DMM that Americans can pay more then Chinese/Taiwanese, it might just make DMM reconsider. That is the thing about money.

      @Vcharng Yes, I do worry about that. And I never heard about Ishihara, but his case alrealdy shows that politicians are willing to bite at the hand that feeds them.

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    • 70.83.39.226 wrote:

      If they can convince DMM that Americans can pay more then Chinese/Taiwanese, it might just make DMM reconsider. That is the thing about money.

      @Vcharng Yes, I do worry about that. And I never heard about Ishihara, but his case alrealdy shows that politicians are willing to bite at the hand that feeds them.

      Politicians who are out of their minds are willing to bite the hand that feeds them.

      Others are suggesting all sorts of methods to legalize Doujinshis under TPP because "it is a huge market".

      TPP requires copyright violation to be non-shinkokuzai, that is, the authorities should sue them even without receiving request from the copyright holder. As Doujinshis are pretty much allowed to exist solely by the copyright holders' NOT taking action, this would mean a complete ban of any non-official Doujinshi.

      Why is Doujinshi allowed to exist solely by the copyright holders' tolerence? Because according to Japanese law, a "secondary creation", e.g. a Doujinshi, has its copyright shared by the original AND the doujin author. In other words, a KC doujin's copyright, for example, is supposed to belong to both DMM and its doujin circle. But in reality, it is only claimed by the circle. A circle claiming its copyright and profit alone is supposedly illegal, but as doujins actually helps the sales of the original, almost all original work copyright holders choose to ignore them, and enjoy the positive effect they bring.

      If copyright violation actually becomes non-shinkokuzai, the Japanese goverment will have to ban all doujinshis, which would deal a heavy blow to the whole ACG industry. Currently this is the second largest obstacle between Japan and TPP, according to NHK's coverage, and the politicians are actually willing to work a way around this problem.

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    • Politicians are cunning bastards in the bad sense of the terms. I think that he was used as a pawn to probe popular will, used then discarded.

      But to return to topic, I think we should still be aware that some American/foreign game publishers are snooping around to survey Kancolle's market. If we want to continue to play a fun game, we must not help them get their license by giving them the data that may sway DMM/KDKW's decisions. By the looks of this thread opener, it seems that they want to push to add Allied ships which will appeal more to the American audience. If possible, our Wikia and allied sites should hide visitor data that may help their market research.

      All this to protect our fun game and beloved kanmusu!

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    • Jeez, so much political stuff going on.

      Let me get something straight. A bunch of western somethings are snooping around and might try to acquire KanColle, or pressure DMM into westernizing it?

      I'd like Allied Warships, but I'd also like Kancolle to stay good, so, I guess I'll just vote for KDKW for the moment.

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    • 70.83.39.226 wrote:
      Politicians are cunning bastards in the bad sense of the terms. I think that he was used as a pawn to probe popular will, used then discarded.

      But to return to topic, I think we should still be aware that some American/foreign game publishers are snooping around to survey Kancolle's market. If we want to continue to play a fun game, we must not help them get their license by giving them the data that may sway DMM/KDKW's decisions. By the looks of this thread opener, it seems that they want to push to add Allied ships which will appeal more to the American audience. If possible, our Wikia and allied sites should hide visitor data that may help their market research.

      All this to protect our fun game and beloved kanmusu!

      Just why do you so want to accuse Allied ships as a conspirasy for Americans to control KC? This is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, and for KC's sake, it would be better if they introduce Alled ships.

      If you live anywhere closer to Eastern Asia, you will see how KC is gradually becoming the core of troubles, as imperial Japanese sympathizers in Taiwan, for example, uses KC to satisfy their fantasy, while mainland China fuels its citizen of hatred toward Japanese by accusing KC (Yes, this, exact, game) as one of the imperialists propaganda.

      KC needs to work its way out of this, by making itself no longer "Axis only".

      So please, stop imagining things, the opening post does NOT have any sign of an interested American trying to buy KC whatsoever. And KC being published in America or any other country is NOT LEGALLY POSSIBLE. Quit making a scene, pretty please.

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    • Advancer231 wrote:
      Jeez, so much political stuff going on.

      Let me get something straight. A bunch of western somethings are snooping around and might try to acquire KanColle, or pressure DMM into westernizing it?

      I'd like Allied Warships, but I'd also like Kancolle to stay good, so, I guess I'll just vote for KDKW for the moment.

      Don't, follow, the, rumors.

      Seriously, please.

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    • Vcharng wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      Jeez, so much political stuff going on.

      Let me get something straight. A bunch of western somethings are snooping around and might try to acquire KanColle, or pressure DMM into westernizing it?

      I'd like Allied Warships, but I'd also like Kancolle to stay good, so, I guess I'll just vote for KDKW for the moment.

      Don't, follow, the, rumors.

      Seriously, please.

      So it's just a bunch of rumors then. Got it. Thanks for clearing it up.

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    • Kanpani is already localized in USA. USA player can still play Kanpani in Japanese DMM.

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      TPP requires copyright violation to be non-shinkokuzai, that is, the authorities should sue them even without receiving request from the copyright holder. As Doujinshis are pretty much allowed to exist solely by the copyright holders' NOT taking action, this would mean a complete ban of any non-official Doujinshi.

      Why is Doujinshi allowed to exist solely by the copyright holders' tolerence? Because according to Japanese law, a "secondary creation", e.g. a Doujinshi, has its copyright shared by the original AND the doujin author. In other words, a KC doujin's copyright, for example, is supposed to belong to both DMM and its doujin circle. But in reality, it is only claimed by the circle. A circle claiming its copyright and profit alone is supposedly illegal, but as doujins actually helps the sales of the original, almost all original work copyright holders choose to ignore them, and enjoy the positive effect they bring.

      If copyright violation actually becomes non-shinkokuzai, the Japanese goverment will have to ban all doujinshis, which would deal a heavy blow to the whole ACG industry. Currently this is the second largest obstacle between Japan and TPP, according to NHK's coverage, and the politicians are actually willing to work a way around this problem.

      JP gov claim the effect will only be put on one-to-one copy.

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    • 70.83.39.226 wrote: If they can convince DMM that Americans can pay more then Chinese/Taiwanese, it might just make DMM reconsider. That is the thing about money.

      at the moment, Chinese speaking player is an order of magnitude more than the entire english speaking community including SEAsia plus europe plus USA according to my understanding.

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    • 70.83.39.226 wrote: Politicians are cunning bastards in the bad sense of the terms. I think that he was used as a pawn to probe popular will, used then discarded.

      But to return to topic, I think we should still be aware that some American/foreign game publishers are snooping around to survey Kancolle's market. If we want to continue to play a fun game, we must not help them get their license by giving them the data that may sway DMM/KDKW's decisions. By the looks of this thread opener, it seems that they want to push to add Allied ships which will appeal more to the American audience. If possible, our Wikia and allied sites should hide visitor data that may help their market research.

      All this to protect our fun game and beloved kanmusu!

      visitor data of the site is admin-only, even I don't know how much visitors the sote is getting

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    • Advancer231 wrote: Jeez, so much political stuff going on.

      Let me get something straight. A bunch of western somethings are snooping around and might try to acquire KanColle, or pressure DMM into westernizing it?

      I'd like Allied Warships, but I'd also like Kancolle to stay good, so, I guess I'll just vote for KDKW for the moment.

      voting KDKW mean supporting them to profit from whatever way they could and localization can also be a probable way to facilitate the goal.

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      Just why do you so want to accuse Allied ships as a conspirasy for Americans to control KC? This is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, and for KC's sake, it would be better if they introduce Alled ships.

      If you live anywhere closer to Eastern Asia, you will see how KC is gradually becoming the core of troubles, as imperial Japanese sympathizers in Taiwan, for example, uses KC to satisfy their fantasy, while mainland China fuels its citizen of hatred toward Japanese by accusing KC (Yes, this, exact, game) as one of the imperialists propaganda.

      KC needs to work its way out of this, by making itself no longer "Axis only".

      So please, stop imagining things, the opening post does NOT have any sign of an interested American trying to buy KC whatsoever. And KC being published in America or any other country is NOT LEGALLY POSSIBLE. Quit making a scene, pretty please.

      In mainland China's case, even if you add allied ships fight alongside our kanmusu, you will still see they accuse the game being an imperialistic propaganda. Just see what happened to the mobile game copying kancolle in China which they ultimately have to give Japan kanmusu a nonhistorical nane and those voice still does not settle for that game.

      You can't break self-fulfilling fantasy either, no matter what you do.

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    • Vcharng wrote:
      Advancer231 wrote:
      Jeez, so much political stuff going on.

      Let me get something straight. A bunch of western somethings are snooping around and might try to acquire KanColle, or pressure DMM into westernizing it?

      I'd like Allied Warships, but I'd also like Kancolle to stay good, so, I guess I'll just vote for KDKW for the moment.

      Don't, follow, the, rumors.

      Seriously, please.

      so all that political fuss is just a rumor, thank god.

      i think i stay here a bit longer, and do a little goggle-fu research.

      this is really interesting discussion.

      KC impact is bigger than i tought. *facepalm*

      ==

      Edit :

      at first i was oppose allied enter Kancolle, but now after i know all of this,

      Allied Ship became Kanmusu

      > Count me in. I support that.

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    • Qunow wrote:

      Vcharng wrote:

      Just why do you so want to accuse Allied ships as a conspirasy for Americans to control KC? This is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, and for KC's sake, it would be better if they introduce Alled ships.

      If you live anywhere closer to Eastern Asia, you will see how KC is gradually becoming the core of troubles, as imperial Japanese sympathizers in Taiwan, for example, uses KC to satisfy their fantasy, while mainland China fuels its citizen of hatred toward Japanese by accusing KC (Yes, this, exact, game) as one of the imperialists propaganda.

      KC needs to work its way out of this, by making itself no longer "Axis only".

      So please, stop imagining things, the opening post does NOT have any sign of an interested American trying to buy KC whatsoever. And KC being published in America or any other country is NOT LEGALLY POSSIBLE. Quit making a scene, pretty please.

      In mainland China's case, even if you add allied ships fight alongside our kanmusu, you will still see they accuse the game being an imperialistic propaganda. Just see what happened to the mobile game copying kancolle in China which they ultimately have to give Japan kanmusu a nonhistorical nane and those voice still does not settle for that game.

      You can't break self-fulfilling fantasy either, no matter what you do.

      The fake KC (So-called KC Chinese Server) that had to change name did not have Allied ships AFAIK (but they have abyssals as playables lol), the one with Allied ship is another fake KC (Battleship Girl), featuring slightly redesigned mechanism and completely new art.

      I think you are mostly referring to Battleship Girl, which is available to mobiles, and did not face such an accusation AFAIK, while KC "Chinese Server" was forced to change all ship girl's names by government pressure. While BG did change Japanese ships' names in Chinese server, it did not in the Taiwanese one, and what's more, it was not really triggered by said accusations, more likely by self-restraint instead.

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    • I did have said mobile game.

      And there are such accusation

      And according to operator it is from upside pressure.

      I am not sure about do the nominal Taiwanese server changed too or not as the case happened around the time of split.

      That KC chinese clone is out of question

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    • Qunow wrote:
      I did have said mobile game.

      And there are such accusation

      And according to operator it is from upside pressure.

      I am not sure about do the nominal Taiwanese server changed too or not as the case happened around the time of split.

      That KC chinese clone is out of question

      The operator only said "because of some reasons", this is written in its entry in moe wiki (萌娘百科). Most likely, the gaming company (the "upside" here) pressurized the devs to do it, out of self-restraint.

      According to the same wiki, all name changes does not apply to the Taiwanese server.

      You don't necessarily have to persuade those accusations, but you still need to have your say, you will still need an explaination, accepted or not. KC needs to be able to explain itself as a not-Axis-only game.

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    • Qunow wrote:

      Vcharng wrote:

      TPP requires copyright violation to be non-shinkokuzai, that is, the authorities should sue them even without receiving request from the copyright holder. As Doujinshis are pretty much allowed to exist solely by the copyright holders' NOT taking action, this would mean a complete ban of any non-official Doujinshi.

      Why is Doujinshi allowed to exist solely by the copyright holders' tolerence? Because according to Japanese law, a "secondary creation", e.g. a Doujinshi, has its copyright shared by the original AND the doujin author. In other words, a KC doujin's copyright, for example, is supposed to belong to both DMM and its doujin circle. But in reality, it is only claimed by the circle. A circle claiming its copyright and profit alone is supposedly illegal, but as doujins actually helps the sales of the original, almost all original work copyright holders choose to ignore them, and enjoy the positive effect they bring.

      If copyright violation actually becomes non-shinkokuzai, the Japanese goverment will have to ban all doujinshis, which would deal a heavy blow to the whole ACG industry. Currently this is the second largest obstacle between Japan and TPP, according to NHK's coverage, and the politicians are actually willing to work a way around this problem.

      JP gov claim the effect will only be put on one-to-one copy.

      You mean the non-shinkokuzai (非告訴乃論/非親告罪, since you seem to be able to read Chinese) will only be put on complete identical copies? Good to hear.

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      You mean the non-shinkokuzai (非告訴乃論/非親告罪, since you seem to be able to read Chinese) will only be put on complete identical copies? Good to hear.

      That's what those Japanese government official are saying recently.

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    • Vcharng wrote:

      The operator only said "because of some reasons", .....

      A famous example about how that game being accused for militarism: http://www.3dmgame.com/news/201504/3484544.html

      And I just found that, according to what netizen believe, https://www.zhihu.com/question/33319249 , it is one of the reason why that game separated into two version.

      The kancolle style is no explanation for things happened in game, just write your story. Even the name abyssal were revealed later. Well of course that might cause things like http://bbs.tianya.cn/m/post-worldlook-983599-1.shtml but it's not sth that can be avoided.

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    • Qunow wrote:

      Vcharng wrote:

      The operator only said "because of some reasons", .....

      A famous example about how that game being accused for militarism: http://www.3dmgame.com/news/201504/3484544.html

      And I just found that, according to what netizen believe, https://www.zhihu.com/question/33319249 , it is one of the reason why that game separated into two version.

      The kancolle style is no explanation for things happened in game, just write your story. Even the name abyssal were revealed later. Well of course that might cause things like http://bbs.tianya.cn/m/post-worldlook-983599-1.shtml but it's not sth that can be avoided.

      (facepalm) Alright, so the mainlanders are even less reasonable than I predicted.

      Nevertheless, KC had to explain when some hostile explaination comes up. When some fandoms question about what happens to ship girls that got dismantled, they had to emphasize that they were not killed; when the source of the Abyssals were questioned, they had to emphasize that they came from sunken IJN ships as well, and so on.

      I think the dismantle explaination is a good example, while there are still hostile secondary creations that implies ship girls being killed via dismantle, it is at least against official statement after they explained. By introducing Allied ships, they can make the "Axis game" issue the same way. It won't eliminate those whiners, but at least it's better than hanging it unsettled.

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    • Actually, IIRC, game devs have already explained tha lt the idea of abyssals is about the negative emotion from sunken ship from both sides, even more clearer than that some individual working for the game said they personally believe dismantled ship just back to become civilian, but people simply does't listen.

      p.s. Latest announcement made by someone involved in the conflict of that chinese game basically confirmed the renaming is requested by Chinese governmental department. http://www.p1p1game.com/a/xinwenzhongxin/2016/0108/385.html

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    • Qunow wrote:
      Actually, IIRC, game devs have already explained tha lt the idea of abyssals is about the negative emotion from sunken ship from both sides, even more clearer than that some individual working for the game said they personally believe dismantled ship just back to become civilian, but people simply does't listen.

      p.s. Latest announcement made by someone involved in the conflict of that chinese game basically confirmed the renaming is requested by Chinese governmental department. http://www.p1p1game.com/a/xinwenzhongxin/2016/0108/385.html

      "幻萌抗拒监管未配合进行实质性修改"

      I would say that this means the "correction" mentioned here is something that has not been implemented yet. 

      But that wouldn't change much, because it means that the authorities are still not satisfied with the game as it is. Maybe they want to remove the clothing-rupture feature? Or simply remove all IJN ships? I don't know.

      I think further discussion about BG will lead us off-topic, even though it is, for now, somewhat related to the Allied-ship-in-KC topic. And I believe that you already know my attitude toward said topic too well.

      Does people listen to the devs' beliefs? AFAIK such doujins saw a drop in numbers after each statements were made. We no longer see secondary creations broadly state that we kill ship girls by modernization or dismantle, they only use it as some sort of joke now. Although I think it still hurts the feeling of the most loving and delicate TTKs, it is at the very least a lot better than the time when Isuzu got her K2. Right after Isuzu K2 was introduced, there were a comic on niconico describing a second copy of Isuzu feared about being "executed" for modernization, by means of guillotine, circular saw, and others. Such works were very common at the time, but no longer now.

      That's why I would say that having an official say is still better than not having one, albeit it is not expected to be completely effective.

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    • I know of a way to have British, American, and Russian ships in Kantai Collection.

      Right now, only Nazi German and Italian ships can fight because they are allies of Japan in WW2.

      In WW1, Great Britain, the United States, and Russia are allies with Japan.  Therefore, British, American, and Russian WW1 warships could fight.

      (A bit crazy of an idea; I was inspired by looking at Siirakannu's Orions, the four sister ships of the Orion-class during WW1.  The Orions are displayed along side of regular Kantai Collection stuff in danbooru.)

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    • USS Enterprise had 71 ship kills. You simply can't put a GOD into a game with mere mortals. That said it would be cool to see the Iowa sisters in game. Whenever I hear Battleship, I think of the iconic Iowa.

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    • Luigidude wrote:
      USS Enterprise had 71 ship kills. You simply can't put a GOD into a game with mere mortals. That said it would be cool to see the Iowa sisters in game. Whenever I hear Battleship, I think of the iconic Iowa.

      You'll have to remember, htough, that Enterprise was a Yorktown class, so she was pretty old by the time the Essex class started rolling off the production line every few months. She was almost the same as other carriers of her time, it's just that the IJN made a bunch of mistakes that made things easier for the USN. That being said, Enterprise in KanColle would just be another carrier under TTK's command, not a god among carriers who can curb-stomp whole fleets easily.

      I'd like to see the Iowas too. Maybe even the older ships, like Texas, or Arizona, or even Langley.

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    • Regarding Big E's chances of sailing in Kancolle seas:

      Vcharng wrote:

      In case if you don't know, the carriers as a whole were seriously nerfed in almost all naval games as well.

      I think they will give Big E some privileges, but not full historical strength. She might have DD-standard Evade with BB-standard HP, and even privilege to strike at night (as she's the only CV ever to be coded as CV(N), night carrier), but won't be invincible.

      @Luigidude Get your delusions out already. Enterprise has a godly luck and is a war hero in her own right for her role in the Pacific War, but that's pretty much the thing going for her.

      As Advancer231 said, had things turned out differently in the Attack of Pearl Harbour or Battle of Midway (IJN has overwhelming advantage but failed miserably in both), she would've been in Davy Jones' locker like her sister ships, and the whole war would last a lot longer.

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    • Vcharng wrote:
      In case if you don't know, the carriers as a whole were seriously nerfed in almost all naval games as well. I think they will give Big E some privileges, but not full historical strength. She might have DD-standard Evade with BB-standard HP, and even privilege to strike at night (as she's the only CV ever to be coded as CV(N), night carrier), but won't be invincible.

      And luck. Don;t forget that she'll probably have high luck.

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    • I think the Yorktown-class is mostly comparable to the Shokaku-class carriers, so If or whenever the Yorktown-class would be introduced they will probably be as "strong as" or have stats comparable to the Shokaku-class carriers; ofcourse with minor differences for the sake of "gameplay diversity". Enterprise would most likely have the same amount of luck as Zuikaku.

      Personally, I think it will be a fun idea to bring in more ship girls from other nations into KanColle.

      I always wanted to sortie Zuikaku and Enterprise together, especially during events.

      I'm probably biased because I live in Washington, but I would love to see Washington (a North Carolina-class battleship) in the game, though I'm not expecting to see her in this game. I haven't started studying on battleships, so I don't know a good comparable of the North Carolina-class to any Japanese battleships.

      I can see if they add in more, nice ship girls it will give players slightly more of an incentive to purchase several ship slot expansions; especially for those who don't want to scrap any more ship girls they want to keep, but are running out of space to do the events.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Regarding Big E's chances of sailing in Kancolle seas:
      Vcharng wrote:
      In case if you don't know, the carriers as a whole were seriously nerfed in almost all naval games as well. I think they will give Big E some privileges, but not full historical strength. She might have DD-standard Evade with BB-standard HP, and even privilege to strike at night (as she's the only CV ever to be coded as CV(N), night carrier), but won't be invincible.

      @Luigidude Get your delusions out already. Enterprise has a godly luck and is a war hero in her own right for her role in the Pacific War, but that's pretty much the thing going for her.

      As Advancer231 said, had things turned out differently in the Attack of Pearl Harbour or Battle of Midway (IJN has overwhelming advantage but failed miserably in both), she would've been in Davy Jones' locker like her sister ships, and the whole war would last a lot longer.

      Well with that line of thinking you'd think the U.S. only won by chance... which 1 visit to the history books will prove isn't true. If Japan made one critical mistake it was attacking the sleeping giant in the first place. The war machine would have spun up either way. Also, you take "delusions" way too seriously... Get your "reality" out of a freaking gaming universe lol. Go to wikipedia and simply look up the Big E's war record. You can't tell me that if she was brought back to life in the kancolle-verse she wouldn't be a damage-dealing God of death. She was the most decorated aircraft-carrier in history, of course her avatar would be godly. So when I said you can't put a GOD into Kancolle I ment it, Enterprise's legend status would be too OP and break the game. Since your bringing up "things turning out differently" what you should be pondering is what would have happened had Japan NOT attacked America and brought her into the war. I dare say if Japan had waited a few years and let America continue to be isolationists... we might all have been speaking German or Japanese right now, truly a scary thought.

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    • Luigidude wrote:
      Well with that line of thinking you'd think the U.S. only won by chance... which 1 visit to the history books will prove isn't true. If Japan made one critical mistake it was attacking the sleeping giant in the first place. The war machine would have spun up either way. Also, you take "delusions" way too seriously... Get your "reality" out of a freaking gaming universe. Go to wikipedia and simply look up the Big E's war record. You can't tell me that if she was brought back to life in the kancolle-verse she wouldn't be a damage-dealing God of death. She was the most decorated aircraft-carrier in history, of course her avatar would be godly. So when I said you can't put a GOD into Kancolle I ment it, Enterprise's legend status would be too OP and break the game. Since your bringing up "things turning out differently" what you should be pondering is what would have happened had Japan NOT attacked America and brought her into the war. I dare say if Japan had waited a few years and let America continue to be isolationists... we might all have been speaking German or Japanese right now, truly a scary thought.

      I only stated that Enterprise had survived both battles partly due to massive screwup on IJN part, and that still counts as being lucky on her part. USN will win against IJN eventually, with her or without, It's just that the Big E managed to become a war hero she is now due to various circumstances.

      My point still stands on you still deluding Big E as a god when she is all but one. She did basically won the Pacific War for USA, sure. but the fact still stands that part of the reason for her being able to do so was because the circumstances allowed her to survive long enough to deliver some serious blow to IJN and hold the line in Pacific theater for long enough for the US to turn the tide as quickly as they did.

      And finally, you don't speak for the devs. For all the legendary status Big E had garnered due to her outstanding service record, she is just another aircraft carrier at the end of the day, at least in the eyes of the Kancolle devs should they ever decide to introduce her. Game balance is more important than historical accuracy of their historical weapon/tank/ship/aircraft/etc. in any video game development, after all.

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    • Luigidude wrote:

      Well with that line of thinking you'd think the U.S. only won by chance... which 1 visit to the history books will prove isn't true. If Japan made one critical mistake it was attacking the sleeping giant in the first place. The war machine would have spun up either way. Also, you take "delusions" way too seriously... Get your "reality" out of a freaking gaming universe lol. Go to wikipedia and simply look up the Big E's war record. You can't tell me that if she was brought back to life in the kancolle-verse she wouldn't be a damage-dealing God of death. She was the most decorated aircraft-carrier in history, of course her avatar would be godly. So when I said you can't put a GOD into Kancolle I ment it, Enterprise's legend status would be too OP and break the game. Since your bringing up "things turning out differently" what you should be pondering is what would have happened had Japan NOT attacked America and brought her into the war. I dare say if Japan had waited a few years and let America continue to be isolationists... we might all have been speaking German or Japanese right now, truly a scary thought.

      If you take a closer look, stats in KC don't really depend on war hero status.

      Who are the IJN ships that were usually considered as the most decorated ships? The first carrier division. And their stats in KC? Not really good. In fact, they never had any "over-poweredness" above others.

      Yamato and Musashi, on the other hand, had nearly zero combat performance in real life. But their stats? Definitely a lot better than Akagi and Kaga.

      On the other hand, we really can't put a god into KC? What about Murata aka "God of Torpedo Bombing"? I have two clones of his squadron in my fleet.

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    • Vcharng wrote:


      If you take a closer look, stats in KC don't really depend on war hero status.

      Who are the IJN ships that were usually considered as the most decorated ships? The first carrier division. And their stats in KC? Not really good. In fact, they never had any "over-poweredness" above others.

      Yamato and Musashi, on the other hand, had nearly zero combat performance in real life. But their stats? Definitely a lot better than Akagi and Kaga.

      On the other hand, we really can't put a god into KC? What about Murata aka "God of Torpedo Bombing"? I have two clones of his squadron in my fleet.

      True..... Buuuuuuuuut Enterprise killed both Akagi AND Kaga, and her squadron's 1k AP bombs were likely what doomed Musashi. When a ship takes out about 16% of her enemy's surface force, that is why I get into OP territory.  : /

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    • In this game, performance are not evaluated by their past action record, it's only luck that depend on it afaik.

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    • Luigidude wrote:

      True..... Buuuuuuuuut Enterprise killed both Akagi AND Kaga, and her squadron's 1k AP bombs were likely what doomed Musashi. When a ship takes out about 16% of her enemy's surface force, that is why I get into OP territory.  : /

      Akagi and Kaga was killed by an ambush, for one. Had Tone's plane launched and find the enemy fleet earlier and several other mishaps didn't happen, the Kidou Butai would've handed their ass a new one. Thu USN tapped their radios, disabled two of IJN's carriers and has the durable Wildcat and flight formation to take on the Zeros, but the Battle of Midway were still in IJN's favor until all that mishaps happened.

      As for her service record of taking out much of the enemy fleet, that is indeed a bit too powerful to be included in the game. The solution for that is simple enough: there is no need to include her full historical strength. Again, I'll stress that game balance is more important than historical accuracy of their historical ship. in any video game development.

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    • No, aside from the fact that I prefer to think I am playing as the Axis against the allies, Allied ships are in general worse then comparable Japanese ships, which will then become stronger with superior allied equipment.

      For example the much celebrated USS Enterprise is roughly comparable to Hiryuu, except it is slower, less armoured, and more bulky. Her complement of 90 aircraft was due to the fact that American Carrier based aircraft had foldable wings in addition to US doctrine allowing for a permanent park of aircraft on the deck which the Japanese initially thought dangerous.

      Her advantages that history would confer unto her ingame would come in the form of a fp boost, high base luck, and high aa, which would still make her of dubious value.

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    • Ar-cen-ciel wrote:
      Luigidude wrote:
      True..... Buuuuuuuuut Enterprise killed both Akagi AND Kaga, and her squadron's 1k AP bombs were likely what doomed Musashi. When a ship takes out about 16% of her enemy's surface force, that is why I get into OP territory.  : /
      Akagi and Kaga was killed by an ambush, for one. Had Tone's plane launched and find the enemy fleet earlier and several other mishaps didn't happen, the Kidou Butai would've handed their ass a new one. Thu USN tapped their radios, disabled two of IJN's carriers and has the durable Wildcat and flight formation to take on the Zeros, but the Battle of Midway were still in IJN's favor until all that mishaps happened.

      As for her service record of taking out much of the enemy fleet, that is indeed a bit too powerful to be included in the game. The solution for that is simple enough: there is no need to include her full historical strength. Again, I'll stress that game balance is more important than historical accuracy of their historical ship. in any video game development.

      Well actually Midway was nearly decided when all the Japanese plannes were revealed by the Americans. The "mishaps" afterwards you mentioned include, I believe, Nagumo's changing bomb load back and forth? That's actually a mistake from the planning stage, as Yamamoto refused to prioritize between bombing Midway airfield and hunting US carriers. When his subordinates pointed out this mistake, he even replied "anyone unsatisfied by my stratagy should retire from their posts now."

      Anyway, more importantly, Big E never killed many ships in one run, she simply racked up a body count year by year. So she was simply nowhere more lucky than Yukikaze, it's just that she packs more ability and thus dealt more damage.

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    • CaptainCoxwaggle wrote:
      No, aside from the fact that I prefer to think I am playing as the Axis against the allies, Allied ships are in general worse then comparable Japanese ships, which will then become stronger with superior allied equipment.

      For example the much celebrated USS Enterprise is roughly comparable to Hiryuu, except it is slower, less armoured, and more bulky. Her complement of 90 aircraft was due to the fact that American Carrier based aircraft had foldable wings in addition to US doctrine allowing for a permanent park of aircraft on the deck which the Japanese initially thought dangerous.

      Her advantages that history would confer unto her ingame would come in the form of a fp boost, high base luck, and high aa, which would still make her of dubious value.

      Uh, actually, Big E packs at least 50% more planes than Hiryu (90 vs. 57+16, remember, IJN have "replacement aircrafts", USN don't). With additional catapult, aircraft performance, C&C, and other superiorities.

      Allied ships are NOT generally inferior to Japanese, they just mature in design a bit later. Besides, Allied forces enjoy better training, resources and industrial infrastructure.

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    • Quite incorrect, all carriers in any sensible nation carried replacement aircraft in a disassembled state in storage, for repairs and maintenance. Heck, later on the Enterprise and other US carriers received additional replacement aircraft carried in juryrigged storage bolted unto the sides of the ships (bringing their totals to 82 + 28). As I mentioned the Enterprises advantage in aircraft is due to universal foldable wings and maintaining a deck park of aircraft, IJN carriers stored their aircraft within the ships hangars while US carriers only used the below deck hangars for servicing and maintenance. Of course there are disadvantages to the US system, namely the significant wear and tear on planes exposed constantly to high humidity and saline, and the incapability of assembling massive air waves due to deck clutter, forcing a rotation system of airborne squadrons.

      The catapult is a vestigial leftover and was never used as steam catapult launches were significantly slower then deck launches. You will notice catapults were removed from the Essex class carriers for this reason, and was removed from the Enterprise herself in 1942.

      The superiority of US aircraft has nothing to do with the carriers themselves, I said Japanese ships were generally superior in design, not their aircraft.

      Early war American training was generally inferior to Japanese training. As the war progressed the Japanese couldnt maintain their high training standards while the US effectively used veterans to train recruits while the Japanese were forced to continue utilising their veterans on the frontlines.

      American superiority in resources and industry again do not make their ship designs better. It only means they could sustain losses that the Japanese couldnt.

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    • CaptainCoxwaggle wrote:
      Quite incorrect, all carriers in any sensible nation carried replacement aircraft in a disassembled state in storage, for repairs and maintenance. Heck, later on the Enterprise and other US carriers received additional replacement aircraft carried in juryrigged storage bolted unto the sides of the ships (bringing their totals to 82 + 28). As I mentioned the Enterprises advantage in aircraft is due to universal foldable wings and maintaining a deck park of aircraft, IJN carriers stored their aircraft within the ships hangars while US carriers only used the below deck hangars for servicing and maintenance. Of course there are disadvantages to the US system, namely the significant wear and tear on planes exposed constantly to high humidity and saline, and the incapability of assembling massive air waves due to deck clutter, forcing a rotation system of airborne squadrons.

      The catapult is a vestigial leftover and was never used as steam catapult launches were significantly slower then deck launches. You will notice catapults were removed from the Essex class carriers for this reason, and was removed from the Enterprise herself in 1942.

      The superiority of US aircraft has nothing to do with the carriers themselves, I said Japanese ships were generally superior in design, not their aircraft.

      Early war American training was generally inferior to Japanese training. As the war progressed the Japanese couldnt maintain their high training standards while the US effectively used veterans to train recruits while the Japanese were forced to continue utilising their veterans on the frontlines.

      American superiority in resources and industry again do not make their ship designs better. It only means they could sustain losses that the Japanese couldnt.

      When I said "IJN have "replacement aircrafts", USN don't" I meant that the number you see in wikipedia is the actuall aircraft load, while the number you see for IJN carriers include reserves. Even Japanese sources say a Yorktown can carry 83 non-reserve aircrafts, still 40%+ more than Hiryu's 57.

      Catapults were rarely used in the early stage because they were unreliable. before 1942 only about 30% sorties were catapult-launched, but by the end of the war the number increased, and after the end of the war, catapult launch became nececcary due to the increased weight of aircrafts.

      The removed catapult you mentioned was the catapult on hangar level, not the two on the flight deck. It was used to launch recons without interfering with the operations on the flight deck, but since USN tended to send a whole deckload of recons, this became useless. Flight deck catapults, on the other hand, were NOT removed.

      Carriers fight by planes, not the ship itself. Planes actually matters more than the carrier.

      You didn't say their designs were worse, you said USN ships are worse as in combat capability, which is absolutely wrong.

      You also mentioned that Big E will be dubious, no, not at the very least. Remember that the only other carrier capable of carrying 90+ aircrafts is Kaga? And her capacity was unhistorically boosted? By this rule Big E would carry 100+ or even 120+ aircrafts.

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    • Im not using wikipedia, Im using actually sourced books on the technical specifications of the ships themselves. So yes, as I mentioned the Enterprise in the later stages of the war when carrying additional stowage bolted along the side has a maximum capacity of 82 + 28 replacement. This much I have already established.

      Again, you are ignoring that this is because American aircraft HAD FOLDABLE WINGS, whereas only the Aichi D3A had foldable wings (and only the wingtips at that). So the supposed greater capacity of the USS Enterprise is due to the aircraft itself fitting in smaller spaces.

      In addition, US doctrine had the aircraft park ON THE CARRIER DECK, rather then within the hangar. The IJN stored their aircraft within the hangar and kept the flight deck clear. 

      Now, in the event that say, Hiryuu received Hellcats and Avengers, and decided to store them on the flight deck and only use the hangar for maintenance and service in the same manner as the US Navy, you will find her "aircraft capacity" to be in the 80 range as well.

      Again, the US capacity for aircraft is due to different doctrine in aircraft servicing and more compact aircraft NOT DUE TO ANY ADVANTAGE IN CAPACITY CONFFERRED BY THE SHIP ITSELF.

      Also due to the fact that the US crammed their carrier decks with carriers, yes recon aircraft had to be launched via the HIVA catapult. This actually greatly unbalanced the ships and had to be reworked to solve this issue by changing their positioning.

      The flight deck catapult was never used, not because steam catapults were unreliable (if they were they wouldnt have been used to launch floatplanes) but because they were incredibly slow to launch aircraft and the air capsule required recharging after every 30 launchers which could take hours.

      And yes, the entire combat capacity for aircraft carriers comes from their aircraft. The US won the skies in the pacific thanks to their great aircraft, not their great carriers (well, their number of carriers in the later stages helped).

      Now, in KC, Japanese carriers have their aircraft numbers "boosted", in order to reflect the change in Japanese doctrine that allowed for a small deckpark of aircraft to be maintained. This may appear ahistorical since Akagi, Kaga, Souryu, and Hirryu sank prior to these changes but are perfectly realistic numbers, particularily considering there is no differentiation between replacement and service aircraft.

      In addition, in KC, aircraft is interchangable, radar is interchangable, guns and aa is interchangable.

      This means every single advantage possessed by the Enterprise can be ripped off and put on a superior chassis. The Enterprise itself possess no advantage over the Hiryuu when devoid of these elements.

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    • Then your books must be problematic. Let's take a look:

      Flight deck catapults were, albeit rarely in the beginning of the war in Pacific, used.

      Early models of Zeroes (model 2x series, but not in 3x and 5x series) are foldable as well, so are Type 97 Torp bombers. Tenzan and Suisei are not AFAIK.

      And either way, KC IGNORES the difference between foldable or non-foldable aircrafts, so the point of "giving Japs US aircrafts and they will be able to carry lots" is invalid, at least in KC.

      In fact, KC even ignores the difference between early models and late models of aircraft. That's why Unryu carries significantly less aircrafts than Hiryu, while having the same hangar space in real life.


      As for real life carriers...

      Hiryu carries much fewer planes. No matter what excuse you'll make for her. For the very least, Yorktown's IJN equivilant should be Shoukaku, although Yorktown still carries more.

      Also, we don't even know if American planes can operate on Japanese carriers. If we want an "IJN-compatible version" of the American planes, it probably won't be anywhere better. (Problems include deck strength, weight, and lots more. For example, TBD is 300kg, or around 11%, heavier than Type 97 when empty, if you try to land a TBD on a Japanese carrier, the wooden, single-layer deck may get damaged. The arresting gear may not be able to withstand as well.)

      Hiryu (as well as other IJN carriers) uses closed hanger, so her aircrafts have to warm their engines on the deck, unless if you wanna get intoxicated by carbon monoxide. Which means she will never meet Enterprise's efficiency on preparing and sending planes into the sky, with or without catapults.

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    • In what world were the Essex class inferior to any carrier design Japan had?

      No Japanese carrier had a deck edge elevator, which was a huge advantage due to the fact that a chance immobilization of the elevator wouldn't result in a huge, gaping hole in the flight deck.  Not having to accomodate an elevator pit also increased hangar space.

      The flight deck catapults most certainly were not "never used" or removed, and in fact later ships would have 2; the heavier planes carrying heavier weapon loadouts required their use late in the war.  Also, they were hydraulic; steam catapults weren't invented until the 50s after the war.

      The Essexes were also constructed using better materials.  The STS steel used by the USN for ship armor could, and was in the case of the Essexes, be used for structural elements, meaning parts of the ships were built using armored material.  The strength of the Essexes was demonstrated based on how much punishment these ships took while still being able to operate (hence Lex's nickname "Blue Ghost" based on how often the Japanese thought they had sunk her); many ships suffered through numerous bomb, torpedo, and kamikaze strikes only to shrug it off and be back to fighting within a few hours. Akagi was destroyed by one bomb and a couple of near misses that set off chain reactions throughout the ship; Franklin took that and was still able to get home under her own power.

      You were right in suggesting that the Allies' economic power was a major contributor to their victory, but the Allies had superior ships exactly because they had the money and resources to spend on them; the upcoming Midways improved on all these points.  Just because Japan realized their economic weakness and tried to prioritize quality over quantity doesn't mean they succeeded.

      Oh, and I'm not using Wikipedia either.

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    • One addition: One of the American's advantage is having aircraft radioes. The Japanese only have some kind of telegraph machine on torp bombers, and nothing at all for fighters and dive bombers, they have to use hand gestures to communicate.

      Does letting IJN use American planes solve this? No, IJN carriers don't have radioes to communicate with aircrafts anyway, so even if you manage to let Hiryu use American planes, Yorktown still have this advantage in her pocket.

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    • 99.5.125.253 wrote:
      In what world were the Essex class inferior to any carrier design Japan had?

      He was mostly referring to the Yorktown class, but yea, they can't be inferior to Hiryu anyway.

      Japanese are more creative on ship designs than the Americans, I'll give them that, but probably not better overall. Remember how bad their damage control was? That was more than the issue of damage control training, ship design is to blame as well (think about poor Taiho... and Akagi.).

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    • Ah yes, I forgot that early Zeroes had foldable wingtips. But the D3A also had them as well.

      http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IDeZDfJNjEE/UK8Q89METkI/AAAAAAAAKgY/FEpNwmDxhJE/s1600/Folding+Wings+on+a+Japanese+Zero.jpg

      http://ipmscanada.com/ipms/member%20models/Wong/Wong_Image/D3A_1.jpg

      Apologies for the latter picture, hard to find good actual photographs of the folded wingtips.

      But regardless it is very obvious that Japanese folding wings weren't generally very productive in minimising space in comparison to American designs.

      http://www.angelfire.com/dc/jinxx1/Wildcat/F4F-4s_Hagar_Deck__1.jpg

      However again, doctrine in regards to aircraft is the main difference between the two. The US carrier in order to achieve higher airplane capacity allowed for a deck park and it's wear and tear abuse of the topside aircraft, and deck clutter preventing the launch of massive attack waves, instead the US favoured numerous smaller attack squadrons. The US carriers were geared towards keeping a constant air presense and their excellent C&C and radios effectively made US carriers capable of sustained operations that allowed her to overwhelm island defences.

      Japanese aircraft favoured a clear topside so that a massed aeriel attack could be organised and the aircraft launched as close to one another. Their lack of radios favoured large aeriel formations as does their concept of the carrier being a raiding element rather then a method of force projection.

      However, our nature of the argument are the ship themselves. As you mentioned, KC being a game centered on Japanese warships, the very nature of American aircraft would require a significant revamp of the current system which is greatly simplified with a few errors (such as the Unryuu class that you mentioned). 

      All in all, despite the US having effective folding wings and an open carrier space, the Enterprise fielded a ready airgroup of 80 compared to Hiryuus 64. A 30% increase. However the Enterprise weighed in at 25,500 tons at full load, in comparison to Hiryuu's 19,800, which is also a 30% increase in displacement.

      Now the question becomes does the additional displacement provide an additional measure of protection that can overcome Hiryuu's advantage in both cost and superior speed and manueaverability. 

      Yorktown was struck by 3 250kg bombs which crippled its engine and allowed her to be struck by 2 torpedoes which started her sinking. She was later finished off by submarine when an american salvage crew attempted to save her.

      Hornet was struck by 3 250kg bombs and 2 torpedoes (and a crashed aircraft), which again crippled her engine and allowed for a following wave to hit her with a final one that caused her to be scuttled.

      Enterprise was struck by 3 250kg bombs in the Solomons, one of which passed through without detonating, and another on contact causing no internal damage. During Santa Cruz she was hit by 2 250kg bombs but remained operational, and evaded several torpedoes. Later on in her carrier she took 2 kamikaze hits.

      Hiryuu was struck by 4 450kg bombs which started a massive fire and caused a collapse of much of the flight deck. Her engine remained unafected for several hours until secondary explosions caused by the fire brought it offline. Her wreck was later scuttled.

      Souryuu was struck by 3 450kg bombs on a laden deck creating a massive chain reaction that caused extensive damage to the ship. She was later scuttled by her escorts due to the lack of capability to salvage her wreck.

      As we see the US carriers of the Yorktown class had a tendency to lose power quickly, which typically sealed their fates, something that only the Enterprise avoided. US however fielded effective damage control that allowed them to control fires, requiring that the IJN sink them with torpedoes to prevent reclamation. The Hiryuu and Souryuu (who I brought in as she is a near sister of Hiryuu) were both likewise reclaimable once the fires died out and had to be scuttled due to Midway being well outside IJN home grounds.

      Thus despite having a 30% increase in displacement (and further incerased to 32,000 tons when she was remodelled to have a torpedo blister among other imprvements), the Enterprise provides no significant increase in survivability, the vulnerability of her sisters being an indication that the Enterprises survival is due to good fortune. Her aircraft complement is equal to Hiryuus in terms of size ratio despite US advantages in aviation. And is a slower, less maneaverable ship. Her saving grace was the excellence of US damage control, 

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    • CaptainCoxwaggle wrote:

      As we see the US carriers of the Yorktown class had a tendency to lose power quickly, which typically sealed their fates, something that only the Enterprise avoided. US however fielded effective damage control that allowed them to control fires, requiring that the IJN sink them with torpedoes to prevent reclamation. The Hiryuu and Souryuu (who I brought in as she is a near sister of Hiryuu) were both likewise reclaimable once the fires died out and had to be scuttled due to Midway being well outside IJN home grounds.

      Thus despite having a 30% increase in displacement (and further incerased to 32,000 tons when she was remodelled to have a torpedo blister among other imprvements), the Enterprise provides no significant increase in survivability, the vulnerability of her sisters being an indication that the Enterprises survival is due to good fortune. Her aircraft complement is equal to Hiryuus in terms of size ratio despite US advantages in aviation. And is a slower, less maneaverable ship. Her saving grace was the excellence of US damage control, 

      No, Japanese carrier loses air power even quicker, I've consulted one of the best naval scholars in my country, and he assured me that no other flight deck was as weak as that of a Japanese carrier. Japanese flight decks are guarrenteed to be disabled by just one bomb hit, although in actual combat it is rare that an IJN carrier got hit just once. This is due to the fact that a very large area of the deck would be blasted out of shape, leaving the whole carrier unable for combat.

      This also means that for a damaged flight deck, a Japanese one takes a lot longer to repair than carriers from other countries.

      Hiryu did not carry 64 planes, she carried 57; a Yorktown class can carry 82~83, not 80.

      By the way, from said scholar, American reserve planes were not disassembled, they were just hung mid-air in the hangar, ready to use in combat. So in reality we are talking about 90~100+ aircrafts from Yorktown versus 57 from Hiryu. In other words, from just 30% more displacement, a Yorktown owns nearly double the aviation capability.

      I would repeat it again, the grace of damage control includes better damage control designs on the ship. You can't save a ship already done for, no matter how well-trained you are. After USS Yorktown was abandoned, she stayed afloat for another night, something not gonna happen on a Japanese carrier of similar size, and suffering similar damage.

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    • What is the name of this "best naval scholar in your country" also what country are you refering to? He is being quite misleading.

      The Japanese, like every other nation with a carrier aside from the US, had a second hangar with which to carry these reserve craft in an assembled state, in addition to disassembled models for parts and service. To put it simply, the hangars of these carriers were built as part of the ships hull and were of rigid construction. This allowed for the ship to retain good seakeeping qualities and allowed for the hangars to be armoured which theoretically protected the aircraft.

      US carriers however built a single large hangar superstructure placed unto the hull of the ship allowing for a much roomier hangar and flight deck space, but sacrificed seaworthiness and protection.

      Now, damage being done to a US carriers blew outwards because the hangar was an extra construction on top of the hull. This had the advantage of limiting damage to the deck because the explosion did not collapse the deck, and damage to the hangar was easily repairable as it was a seperate structure from the deck. However this made the internals of the ship incredibly vulnerable, as we see where US carriers routinely had their machinery disabled during attacks.

      Now the Japanese had their hangars integrated as part of the hull. This meant that bombs hitting the deck would project their force upwards, collapsing the deck and rendering it unusable. Damage to the hangar is also structural damage to the hull, making repairs more time intensive. However Japanese carriers had much better protected internal components and hull stability.

      For her sortie in Midway, Hiryuu's air group was an even 21 Zeros, 21 D3A1s, and 21 B5N2s. If you can add, this amounts to 63. In addition 10 aircraft were carried in reserve. 

      The Air group for the Enterprise was originally 36 SBDs, 18F4Fs, 18 TBDs for a grand total of 72. Following refits this increased to 36 SBDs, 36 F4Fs, and 15 TBDs for a total of 87. And finally in 1944 her airgroup consisted of 20 Helldivers, 36 F6Fs, and 16 TBMs for a total back to 72. Her night battle group was 34 F6Fs and 21 TBMs for 55.

      Also Akagi, Kaga, Hiryuu, and Souryuu were all afloat several hours after the damage as I mentioned. Ships typically do not sink unless their hull itself is compromised. Whether they were TCLs is another matter. Indeed, the only Japanese aircraft carrier the US sank with aircraft and was not scuttled by the Japanese was Zuikaku on her suicide run.

      The US advantage in damage control was entirely due to training, every US sailor was drilled in damage control, whereas the Japanese only had dedicated Damage control crew, a practice they adopted from the British.

      But all in all, I think historical evidence shows it best. Hiryuu, being the sole survivor at Midway and facing 3 enemy CVs managed to sink the Yorktown. During Santa Cruz, the IJN sank the USS Hornet with no loss of carriers. During the Phillipine Sea, all the Japanese losses in carriers were due to submarines rather then US carriers. And at Leyte the remains of the IJN carrier force was sent out as bait to allow the surface fleet to engage.

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    • Lets say allied ships do come to play in the kanolle world. How would it work if the yorktown class carriers enterpirse, hornet, and yorktown coencide with those off the essex class carriers of the same name? Would the Essex class carriers be the kai or kai ni of the yorkton carriers?

      Furthermore, i don;t know if someone mentioned about having the iowas in the game. I would suggest only having two of them (Iowa and Missouri) instead of all of four of the iowas just because I feel they'll overshadow some of the BBs in the game. Having the north carolina class and south dakota classes in the game would be meaningless since the iowas are pretty much their successors.

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    • CaptainCoxwaggle wrote:
      What is the name of this "best naval scholar in your country" also what country are you refering to? He is being quite misleading.


      I'm from Taiwan and he is usually known as K大 in Chinese. He is the authority source.

      You need to correct almost everything you learned.

      Japanese reserve planes are disassembled, this can be found almost everywhere. 

      At least most Japanese hangars are extra structure outside/above the hull, just find any photo of any Japanese carrier and you can see it clearly. They even have the likes of Akagi and Kaga who started as battlecruisers/battleships, whose hull is simply not big enough/tall enough to contain a hangar.

      Hiryu's air squad on Midway was at most 21/18/18, total 57 (from battle records on the airstrike on Midway island, that is, before any losses were made, it could even be 18/18/18, total 54). Either way, as she did carry 21/18/18 in Pearl Harbor, her capacity should be considered as 57. She never carried 60+ active planes. Not in plans, not in Pearl Harbor, not in Midway.


      "But all in all, I think historical evidence shows it best. Hiryuu, being the sole survivor at Midway and facing 3 enemy CVs managed to sink the Yorktown. During Santa Cruz, the IJN sank the USS Hornet with no loss of carriers."

      Your cases only prove that in carrier warfare, the ability to strike first is more important than sheer ship design/performance. Something the Americans already knew in exercises and simulations well before the war started.

      Also, both Shoukaku and Hiyou were critically damaged by aircrafts before being finished by subs. If you cosider Yorktown as sunk by Hiryu instead of I-168, why would you consider these two as sunk by subs? You are comparing them under an unfair critiria.

      You need to re-learn almost everything, I'm afraid.

      And, I'll have to discontinue this discussion here. We are drifting away from the topic.

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